Tag Archives: Women in Ministry

031 I Jeanette Cochran on Empowering Women in Ministry: Breaking Limiting Beliefs

Posted on October 14, 2026 by | Leave a comment
A woman with long brown hair smiling while sitting, wearing a green button-up shirt, holds a notebook. Text overlay includes her name, Jeannette Cochran, and mentions her as a women's leadership development coach and guest on The Beautiful Kingdom Builders podcast.

In this episode, Jeanette Cochran shares her journey from conservative Christian upbringing to becoming an executive pastor for twenty years, and now a leadership coach for other women in ministry. In our conversation, she discusses the impact of limiting beliefs on women in faith communities, the nature of leadership, and how spiritual practices can empower women to lead fully in their calling.

You can learn more about Jeannette’s ministry at jeannettecochran.com and also follow her on Facebook, Instagram, and Linkedin.

I’ve been listening to Jeannette’s excellent podcast, Empowered to Lead, for a few years now and highly recommend you subscribe! You can find it on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube, as well as other places.

Please enjoy this episode of The Beautiful Kingdom Builders podcast on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, Substack, and more!

TRANSCRIPT:

Rev. Ruth Perry (00:16)
My guest today is Jeanette Cochrane, a leadership coach, former executive pastor and speaker, who has spent decades helping women reclaim their God-given authority and break free from limiting beliefs that have held them back. Her ministry focuses on spiritual formation, leadership development and dismantling the inner narratives that keep women from living fully in their calling. I’ve been listening to Jeanette Cochran’s podcast, Empowered to Lead, for many years myself and learning a lot from her. And I’m just delighted that you would come on my podcast today. Thank you so much, Jeanette.

Jeannette Cochran (00:49)
Well, thank you for having me, Ruth. I’m thrilled to be here and this conversation is something that I’m passionate about and always enjoy talking about.

Rev. Ruth Perry (00:58)
Well, before we dive into talking about the limiting beliefs that women hold coming from Christian upbringing, can you start by telling us more about yourself and your own faith background?

Jeannette Cochran (01:10)
Sure. I am in Maryland. I was a pastor at a local church here, a multicultural church. I was served as the executive pastor there for 20 years. Previous to that, I was the children’s pastor. I am married. I have three adult children and two granddaughters that I adore. And many years ago, I would have said that I kind of stumbled into pastoral leadership. Because it took me several years into my journey to realize that I had always been gifted and called to be a pastor. But I was like many of us, I was raised in a very conservative, very traditional, patriarchal Christian church, and we didn’t have women pastors.

And we didn’t have women deacons or elders or ministry directors, anything. It was all done by the men. And so I loved Jesus very much, but I never saw myself as a pastor because I also am very feminine, right? I love getting dressed up, doing my hair, doing my nails. I love all the female things. So being a pastor was a very male thing to me. And it wasn’t until my young 20s when my husband and I found a local church in our area, and it was fortunately a much healthier church and began to open my eyes to different belief systems in within the Christian faith, very orthodox. They were very committed to scripture. And one of those things was this was a church that had women in what they called their leadership council, many would call elders or trustees.

And women were allowed to preach, and women were allowed to do all of the things. Now, granted, we didn’t have a ton of women leaders, but women were allowed to do that. And so eventually I felt called into ministry and went to seminary and began to study for myself what the scriptures say about women and leadership and came to a completely different understanding and realized that in the gospel, in the redemption of Jesus, that God is trying to right what went wrong at the fall. And this separation and divide and limiting women is a result of sin. And as followers of Christ, we’re called to live into the new creation, into the redemption of all people and all things. And so that means that men and women are called to lead together.

So on this side of my journey, I can look back and I can see who I was as a leader and as a young person and realized this was always my path. I just could not hear God’s voice because it took me a while to realize that this was even an option before I realized that this is what I was created to do.

Rev. Ruth Perry (03:56)
I think it’s so interesting how powerful representation is for young people growing up in the church. If you don’t see someone that looks like you, then you don’t even imagine that path for yourself. What do you think that’s about?

Jeannette Cochran (04:09)
Absolutely. And also having people speak into your life. I was discipled as a teenager in the church, and I know that there were young men that the leaders would look at and say, I see leadership in you. I see that you could be a pastor. I never even had anyone in my church say that I was a leader. I was almost 25 years old before I had another Christian look at me and say, You’re a leader. And so I never saw myself as a leader. Now, those who know me today would say that seems kind of ludicrous. But in fact, much of what was in me oftentimes was seen kind of rebellion or pushing the limits.

And I definitely had that in me, but really if that had been developed, it would have been a leadership skill because I was very inquisitive. I I wasn’t one that wanted to follow the rules just for following the rules. I asked a lot of questions. Even in my friend group, I was influential in what we would do or the activities that we were involved in. I had influence.

But no one developed that and called that leadership. So it wasn’t until I was a young adult that I began being invited into leadership development paired with discipleship and understanding how to live as a Christian leader. And so I had a lot of undoing. And I think that’s why I’m passionate and called to this work today, because over many years, as I stepped into leadership, I began to kind of peel back the layers, right?

I think we first step into becoming a leader and we own who we are, but along the way there are lots of layers that God strips away to help us start to recognize things that we’ve internalized that are not in alignment with who we are in Christ, that are not in alignment with who we are as leaders. And so we have to peel that away so that we can step more fully into who God has called us to be. And to have the kingdom impact that he wants us to have.

Rev. Ruth Perry (06:14)
When you realize that your gifts hadn’t been called out and recognized growing up, what was the emotional feeling of that realization? And then also what was it like to then try to catch up?

Jeannette Cochran (06:26)
Such a good, such a good question. Because I know as I talk to women, a lot of them feel behind, like we’ve missed something. And so honestly, yes, at first when I first started awakening to my call, there were times where I would look back and I would think, I wonder what my life would have been if.

Because I also started college later in my life. I went to seminary later in my life. And so I did sit with that for a while. And I eventually came to the position of letting that go and realizing I not only realizing, but believing. The path that I walked was exactly the path that I was supposed to walk.

Because I am who I am today, and I can do the work that I do today exactly because of those experiences. And so I also know that the scripture says that nothing happens that is completely outside the hand of God. Now that that doesn’t mean God was happy about it or God caused it, but He saw what was happening, and that, you know, all of those things that happened to us, God redeems for his good. And so it’s because I grew up in a very conservative fundamentalist Christian environment that I understand how fundamentalists believe and think. I can have those conversations. I can reach back and I can say, you know, you can love scripture and you can be committed to the authority of the Bible.

And be an egalitarian and realize that men and women are called to live and lead in mutuality. I can have those conversations because I walked that path. And so I believe that all of that learning, though some of it was hard, was a part of bringing me to where I am today.

Rev. Ruth Perry (08:12)
Yeah. Can you tell me more about what is leadership? What are those gifts like and what is your leadership gifting in particular?

Jeannette Cochran (08:20)
I would say leadership is just influence. That’s a definition that many people say, but it it really is. It’s influence. And so what we have to realize is we can lead people astray if we’re influencing them in the wrong direction. We sometimes influence people without even realizing we’re influencing them. So leadership is influence.

And developing that influence so that you are intentional and you are leading and living from your values and moving people and your life in an intentional direction is really important. And we lead from who we are. So this is why I believe pairing leadership development with spiritual formation, with theological education is so important because you’re gonna lead from what you believe, you’re gonna lead from who you are, you’re gonna lead from the practices that you have placed in your life and how you’re leading yourself is how you’re gonna show up. So we’re all called to lead ourselves. When you look at the gospels, I think that’s what we see that Jesus did.

With those who were closest to him with the twelve, which I will say also remember that the disciples of Jesus did include women. They’re the the gospels tell us that there were women that were traveling with them, that Mary sat at the feet of Jesus. And that means that she was a learner, she was a disciple. So Jesus was developing those around him not to just be followers, but to be followers that would then go and become leaders. And so as a follower of Christ, I believe that everyone has some leadership potential that we are called to develop so that we are ushering in the kingdom of God. And sometimes we can mistakenly think that leadership in the church is just for a select few. It’s just for the pastors or maybe the elders.

But we are all called to lead. We are all given the Spirit of God. And sometimes God calls you to lead in the marketplace. Sometimes God calls you to lead in education. Wherever you go, you should show up as who you are in Christ with your gifts and leading yourself first so that you are an example of what the kingdom of God is. And then using those gifts in order to further God’s kingdom wherever he’s placed you. So I believe that each of us has leadership that we’re supposed to be developing. And then God calls us to use that in different places within our life.

Rev. Ruth Perry (10:51)
So what what are your particular leadership giftings in pastoral ministry, Jeanette?

Jeannette Cochran (10:57)
Well, I would say my leadership gifts, I am a visionary. I am a high extrovert and I’m creative. And so I do tend to gravitate towards those leadership roles, and I do well where we are envisioning, creating new initiatives and building teams, I’m definitely a people person. So bringing people around and developing them and helping them to find their place on the team and then empowering them to go. And in some respects, that may be why as a young person I didn’t really always fit the mold for what the women were doing. I’m not good at, you know, things like cooking.

I’m not good at the the typical like homemaking roles, although it is important to me. You know, I’m a a wife and a mother and and my home environment is important to me. I’ll just but I’ll just say I’m not great at that. I’m not great at hospitality. I I look to others to help me develop those kinds of gifts. And so my gifts do tend to be more in developing other people, casting vision, teaching and helping the community to figure out where is God calling us to go and move together in the same direction. And because of that, I need people around me who like to implement. So I’ve been known to start ministries and be really excited about it. But then once they get up and they’re running, I want to hand them off to someone else. That’s what I did again and again in my church.

I want to hand them off to somebody that’s really good at creating the systems and keeping things maintained and helping, you know, people to keep moving forward. I want to move on to something new. And so my my gifts oftentimes do show up in areas that are more like entrepreneurship, where you’re creating something new, you’re getting it going, you’re inviting people in, and then you’re developing them so that you can hand that ministry off. To the next leader who’s gonna take it to that next level.

Rev. Ruth Perry (13:03)
Can you describe how you decided to transition from being a pastor to being a coach?

Jeannette Cochran (13:09)
Yeah, that was such a hard decision. And God really was developing this in me for I want to say a decade because early on, I didn’t really have a desire to develop women. I wasn’t really focused on women’s leadership development. In fact, many of the women’s ministry initiatives that I saw happening around me, I wasn’t as interested in. in large part because a lot of oftentimes women’s ministry is not focusing on leadership and growth and impact.

You know, in in many churches and sometimes in our own church for for women, they have women’s teas. And for the men, they are talking about, you know, how to lead your in the marketplace or how to lead in the church. And that’s not not to diminish tea. I love tea. I love conversations with women. But there weren’t a lot of places where women were talking about leadership, where women were talking about goals, where women were talking about having an impact.

And so for a long time I didn’t feel called to that. And then over the years, as I was leading as an executive pastor, and I was in an egalitarian church where women could lead at all levels, but there’s a bit of a twist to that because our church was a part of a denomination, the Evangelical Free Church, that did not welcome women into all levels of leadership, where women were not allowed to be ordained, where they believed that the office of pastor and of elder was only for men. But because it is a denomination where there was freedom for the churches to operate how they wanted to, we had made that distinction. And we did have women pastors and women functioning as elders.

And they were fine with that. They were fine. They knew that, and they were fine with that. But they were clear that they were not going to change their position on ordaining women. And so, in that structure, I really was not welcomed into a lot of the conversations as an executive pastor. So there was an executive pastor network within our denomination. And I actually attended one year.

And there were a few men that welcomed me into the conversation, but most of the men there, although they were kind, I feel like they didn’t know what to do with me. It was almost like, why are you here? And so I never went back. Because frankly, I was busy. I was leading a growing church.

My church was at the time was larger than many of the men in that executive pastor’s network. And so I had a lot of work to do. I had a lot of people to care for. I had staff to develop. And so I realized: why am I gonna spend three days, fly across the country, go sit in settings where I’m not gonna gain anything from it because I had work that God had called me to do and I needed to do it. So I never went back.

And so that was my first kind of awakening where I felt God saying, Jeanette, I’ve called you to this role not just to develop your leadership, but because there are women that are in really difficult situations in churches where I have called them. And they are trying to figure out how to navigate that. They’re trying to figure out how to connect their calling with the scriptures. And so over time I began God saying, I have work for you to do that is beyond your own church and is for the kingdom of God. And so in those years, I started then speaking out. I started a blog. I eventually started my podcast, all with the idea of just sharing to women.

Different ways of understanding the Bible. Then over time I felt God really showing me that I couldn’t hold both. I had to choose one or the other because it was too much. And so I eventually came to the realization that God was calling me to let my church pastoring go. And I loved my church. I loved the people at my church. And so that was really a hard decision. I loved my team.

But I knew that to be faithful to what God was calling me to meant that I had to spend more time on reaching people beyond my congregation. And so I did that in December of 2024 was when I officially resigned. We also had a an outreach center there, the Community Hope Center, that I launched during COVID with a small team there at my church that had.

Taken off. And so I was developing leaders to take that over so I could let that go. And that also was particularly hard because that was a vision that God had given our church and had given me deeply decades before it started. And so when God brought that to fruition and it was developed and serving thousands of people, and I had to kind of hand that baby over.

But if you see kind of a theme here, that’s who God has created me to be, to give me a vision and to start it. And then eventually God has always called me to hand it over. He did that in my children’s ministry. He did that in my executive pastoral role. He did that at the Community Hope Center. And now I’ve got this new vision that quite frankly, Ruth, I don’t know how it’s all gonna play out.

I don’t have a clear pathway. I just knew I needed to trust God and let go of what I was holding on to tightly so that I had open hands to embrace what he had for me in this new season. And God is opening doors and done amazing things. And one of the things that I love along the way is the incredible women that I’ve met with leadership gifts and some of those women that

I just have been humbled and honored to even walk with them because they have incredible, incredible gifts. Gifts of preaching, women who are brilliant, way smarter than me. And as I have been coaching them, coming to find out that they’re some of them have been caught in churches for decades where their gifts have been minimized and sidelined. And that’s not to say.

That God hasn’t used their gifts, but they are recognizing that they have teaching and preaching and leadership gifts that need to be unleashed beyond just the children’s ministry or the women’s ministry. That it needs to go beyond that so that the whole church can benefit from the wisdom and the messages, the influence that God has given them the revelation, quite frankly, from the Spirit of God that lives in them because they have the Holy Spirit and the gifting. And so it’s been such an honor to place such a small role even in their lives because some of those women are doing incredible things and are way more influential than I am today. And I I applaud that. I salute that because that’s what we need in this next generation of women leaders.

Rev. Ruth Perry (20:13)
That’s amazing. And I’m just so thankful just for the little bit of your work that I’ve experienced by listening to your podcast. Your content is always really wonderful and really helpful. And maybe I need to look into some more coaching with you, Jeanette. I would love to be empowered to lead.

Jeannette Cochran (20:31)
I would love that.

Rev. Ruth Perry (20:32)
I’m thinking about what a process it’s been for myself from the time that God called me to become a pastor. And I was in a conservative Christian denomination and family. And so I didn’t have that empowered support in ministry and in that process. And I found a lot of the learning and growing online, like how I found your podcast. But it’s been wild to me, just even in the last few years, the revelations I’ve had about my imposter syndrome and about still feeling like I need to follow my husband in ministry and kind of branching off from that and going into my own path and exploring doors as they open for me without my husband. You know, it’s been really interesting for me. Can you talk to my audience about the limiting beliefs that women inherit in our conservative Christian families and churches?

Jeannette Cochran (21:21)
Yes, that is so common what you have expressed. Because when we internalize things for so much of our life, especially for those of us who grew up in conservative Christianity, our most formative years were spent giving us a description of what a biblical woman is. And in those circles, oftentimes a faithful biblical woman always stands behind another man, whether that man is her husband or a pastor, and when we’re young, our fathers. And so even when we know, when we come to this understanding of what the Bible says, it can take a while before we start to realize that some of the things that are causing us to doubt our voice or to doubt the gifts that God has given us.

Are because we’re just so used to being the the person that’s second in line. We’re so used to softening our voice or hedging the way we speak instead of showing up and now it I’m not suggesting that we show up arrogant, but to just show up confident in who we are, that we have gifts.

And those gifts have been given by God. And therefore we can trust that the spirit that is developing those gifts is going to use those gifts. And sometimes it shows up just in the way we carry ourselves. It can show up in the way that we hesitate to say what we think.

It can show up in the way that we maybe give more weight to someone else’s opinion, even though at first we had a really strong opinion, and then we get someone else’s opinion and we think, well, maybe I should defer to them. And a lot of times that really is just coming to this place of learning to trust that the wisdom that I have and the gifts that I have are enough. They’re enough to go forward and to do the work that God has called me to do.

And, you know, fortunately for me, my husband has never felt called to ministry. So I didn’t have to worry about that. In fact, most of the time, or I should say, full-time ministry, he was clear that my wife is called to pastoral ministry, I am not. And he was always very encouraging and was very supportive. He saw my gifts. And he believed that I had something to offer. And so we didn’t really have that tension at home. In fact, our marriage really operated very egalitarian. And now we used a lot of the complementarian language early in our marriage, but we operated egalitarian.

So when I came into that understanding and when my husband came into that understanding, we really didn’t have to change the way that we operated. And so I didn’t really have that. But I do think that for many women, it can be years of conversations with their spouse. I think, just over time, just starting to understand where are the the places that we aren’t feeling as confident and then exploring why is that. And sometimes it’s just because it’s new. We’ve never done it before. And you know, for women.

I do think it’s important to say that we have to actually learn to recognize what happens in our body and in our nervous system when we start to step out in new directions. Because for so much of history, women who stepped out of line, who stepped out of what was socially acceptable, it was dangerous in some situations, right? When you look at the scriptures, you see that that women could be ostracized from the community and then they economically could not take care of themselves, or physically, we physically could not did not have the might and the power to protect ourselves. And so in much of human history and in culture, it was dangerous.

And for those of us who grew up in very traditional fundamentalist Christianity, it might have been a different kind of dangerous, but it also was dangerous sometimes to speak up, to say what you thought, or to just even take leadership. Am I stepping in a direction that I’m I’m not supposed to is this out of God’s will? And you might have been criticized or you might have been marginalized. Or for some women, you know, we’re still hearing the stories today in some Christian communities, there is abuse taking place. So I share that to say sometimes when we say, Well, I’ve got something in me that I need to fix, you know, I’ve got imposter syndrome. What I want us to understand, some of the way that we respond, that our nervous system responds and our thoughts play out, is completely normal.

Because we are now, we’re in a place where many of us were like, it is safe. It is safe to use our gifts. We’ve even been invited to use our gifts, but we have to recognize this is a departure from the past. And so we have to start to recognize where we may be holding back and start to dismantle some of those beliefs, learn to regulate our nervous system and step more fully and confidently in that peace into those areas that God is calling us to lead.

Rev. Ruth Perry (26:29)
A few years ago I read a biography of Eugene Peterson and I read Phillip Yancey’s autobiography the same winter. And I just remember being blown away because I thought they were both so ambitious. And I had never really thought about ambition within Christian ministry. I just felt like you were called and gifted and you serve. Service is the driving force, is what I would think.

And I would try to explain as I was talking about these books with people, and I just could never remember the word ambition. It was like I was allergic to it. And I think that I was allergic to ambition. And I did look down on it a little bit growing up Christian, where I don’t think it was positively reinforced unless I was ambitious to serve others. And so how do we undo that kind of formation from our childhood where we peel back the onion layers and we recognize that there’s something about the way that we are that isn’t authentic to who God made me to be. It’s something I’ve picked up because of my cultural conditioning.

Jeannette Cochran (27:31)
I think ambition is such a big issue, particularly for women. And the Bible does not say that ambition is bad. It says that selfish ambition is bad. And so we do need to ask ourselves: where is that ambition coming from? Like what is it that we want to do? Is it that we want to make a name for ourselves? Is it is it that we want to hoard resources and live in a a big mansion and you know have jets and planes? And you know, we see that happening in some Christian circles. And I think that needs to be questioned.

Rev. Ruth Perry (28:08)
Yeah.

Jeannette Cochran (28:09)
And and so both men and women have ambition and probably at different levels. And I think it comes back to what has God gifted us for and what has God called us to. And but I think the unfortunate thing is in so much of the theology and teaching for women is we have been taught and conditioned to question our motives all the time.

Always question our motives more than the the men and the boys. And I’ll and I’ll say give an example. So just this was just recently. I heard a podcast of a man and a woman speaking, and it was a complementarian church that believed that women should not be pastors, and the woman was making the statement.

That women can lead, but they shouldn’t be pastors. And she said if a woman wants to be a pastor, she really needs to ask herself why? What are her motives? Why does she want that platform? Which, you know, I could say, okay, that’s a great question. But why do we not say that to the men when they want to be pastors? Right? Well, we don’t. We go, wow, God must be calling you. You want to give your life to Jesus. That’s fantastic.

But in many situations, if women want that, the question is, you must have ulterior motives. And so we’re constantly given this teaching and this feedback that causes us to question our motives. And so whenever we want something that seems big or that’s gonna put us out in the limelight, like we’re gonna be seen by others. They may criticize us.

The first thing that’s gonna happen is we are gonna question ourselves. And I think the question that we need to ask ourselves is: okay, is God calling me to this? Do I feel a stirring that these are gifts that I have that I wanna use? And what is it for? Is it because I want to advance God’s kingdom? Is it because I want people to know Jesus? Is it because I want to love and serve and give to people? If so, go for it. Be ambitious.

Who can look at the Apostle Paul and say the Apostle Paul was not ambitious? In fact, you could look at Jesus and say, Jesus was ambitious. Jesus had a plan. He knew what he was called to. He knew how long he needed to stay somewhere. And he was like, hey, to his to his followers, no, we can’t stay here because I got other places to go and preach the gospel. He had an ambition for God.

And so instead of squelching that and stifling that in our women and our young girls, we need to develop that. We just need to help them make sure that they have the tools to explore that with the spirit. Make sure that they are learning scripture, make sure that they’re learning how to pray, how to listen to God. Develop those spiritual formation tools so that that ambition can be directed by the Holy Spirit.

But I think what we do is as soon as we see ambition in women, we start to question it and assume that it’s coming from ego, that it’s coming from a bad place. Instead of saying, hey, you’ve got ambition, that’s fantastic. Let’s talk about that. Let’s develop that for Jesus because the kingdom of God has a lot of work to do. We have a big world and we’re called to go. So let’s use that ambition in the right direction.

Rev. Ruth Perry (31:23)
I think what you said about the nervous system is really important too. Can you talk more about how our nervous system is connected to our calling and our ability to serve God?

Jeannette Cochran (31:33)
Absolutely. So it is so interesting if you look at neuroscience and how the brain works and what science is really affirming is really very similar to many of the ancient spiritual practices and what earlier Christians engaged in order to really find their centering in God and find peace and to really grow as a person. And so I really have connected much of what neuroscience has said to some of the ancient spiritual practices. So some of those practices would be centering prayer, lectio divina, even just sitting quietly and

Breathing deeply and resting, like that resting in the spirit of God, trying to be aware of God’s presence and connecting through our breath. And you know, when I was growing up, those kinds of practices were considered evil, like they were gonna lead you astray. And what I know today is that’s actually not true because we are whole beings.

God created us not just with a spirit, but with a body and a mind. And so much of what science is showing is doing very similar practices. They’re just pulling the God part out. And so I say, no, let’s engage those practices and let’s actually integrate our faith. Let’s realize that when we sit in silence and we notice our breath, what we’re doing is we’re sitting quietly in the presence of God. Right? Even when you think about the word breath, pneuma is in scripture, Spirit. There is also the word Yahweh, right, in the Hebrew. It was the name that God told Moses was his name. When when Moses is sent to Pharaoh.

And Moses says, but before I go, they’re gonna ask me who sent me, so who are you? And the name that God gives is Yahweh. And if you say that in the Hebrew, it’s actually pronounced with just the consonants. It’s actually the sound of breathing. That is the name of God. That’s the name that God gave to Moses. And so if you think about that, when we say the name of God in Hebrew, we’re just breathing. And so it’s almost the sense that to breathe is to say the name of God. To be alive is to acknowledge God, whether we know we’re acknowledging God or not. If we have breath in our lungs, we are acknowledging God. And so that’s where I say some of these modern practices that people are engaging in and finding peace and finding stillness, finding stress relief, I would argue they may not know that they’re sitting in the presence of God, but that’s what they’re doing.

And so I teach women and Christians to engage these practices with their heart and mind open, that they are engaging in the presence of God, that they are opening their whole self up to the Spirit of God to be calmed, to let the Spirit have more reign within them than the flesh. That’s what Paul says. He says we’re called to intentionally to put off the flesh and put on the spirit.

To not be led by our flesh, but to be more and more led by the Spirit of God. And so many of these ancient practices that in much of our Christian communities, especially I think in much of evangelicalism, have been lost, are practices that do that. They help us to rest our whole body, our nervous system in the presence of God, allow the Spirit of God to connect our mind and our heart, and open us up to be able to receive, I believe, more of God’s peace, more of God’s freedom, and more of revelation of God so that we can then move in our day with the spirit directing us more than the flesh directing us.

Rev. Ruth Perry (35:36)
That’s so powerful. Thank you so much for talking about that with us. So people can follow you. Your podcast is Empowered to Lead. Your website is Jeanette Cochrane with two N’s and two Ts dot com. And I’ll link these in the show notes. And how else can people engage with your ministry now?

Jeannette Cochran (35:54)
Well, thank you for asking. I would love if people would find me on Instagram. I’m on Instagram at Jeanette.cochran and send me a direct message, say hello, check out my podcast. I love to engage and get to know people who are listening and have these conversations and just really help more and more women and men find the truth of scripture and find ways that we can more fully utilize our gifts and lead together in mutuality for the good of God’s kingdom. And I’m grateful for this conversation. I’m grateful for the opportunity to meet incredible women like yourself, Reverend Ruth, doing the work that you’re doing. So thank you for what you do as well.

Rev. Ruth Perry (36:38)
Well, I’m incredibly grateful to you and to the many lessons you’ve taught me. I think good theology is so important and everything I’ve ever heard on your podcast is so grounded in scripture and in good theology and is helpful and I just highly recommend your work. And you can also come and speak and do trainings in person as well. So if you’re a ministry leader with a congregation that would benefit from having Jeanette. Then do reach out and thank you so much for being here today. Let me give you the last word before we sign off.

Jeannette Cochran (37:10)
Well, thank you again, Ruth, and thank you for your ministry. And just for those who are listening, I just wanna encourage men and women that we should all be developing our gifts to the fullest. Because we don’t want to end our life without having developed every ounce of potential that God has given us for the kingdom of God. And so that’s what I’m passionate about helping to empower everyone to lead, but especially to empower women to lead. So thanks for this opportunity.

Rev. Ruth Perry (37:41)
Thank you, God bless.

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026 I Lydia Grace Kaiser: What if We Misread the Bible on Women?

Posted on September 9, 2026 by | Leave a comment
Image of Lydia Grace Kaiser, author of 'Bible Truth About Women', featured as a guest on The Beautiful Kingdom Builders podcast, with a logo of the podcast and a link to her website.
Buy your copy of Bible Truth About Women and find more from Kaiser at lydiakaiser.com

In this latest episode of The Beautiful Kingdom Builders Podcast, author Lydia Grace Kaiser shares her journey from traditional complementarian views to a more egalitarian understanding of women in scripture. She discusses biblical translation, cultural context, and how Jesus elevated women, encouraging listeners to explore scripture deeply and embrace their calling. Be free!

You can find more about Lydia Grace Kaiser on her website, where there are links to her social media accounts as well. And I highly recommend buying Kaiser’s book and reading it for yourself. It is a treasure trove of insight on Scripture’s message to women.

Please enjoy this episode of The Beautiful Kingdom Builders podcast on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, Substack, and more! 

TRANSCRIPT:

Ruth Perry (00:17)
My guest today is Lydia Grace Kaiser. She wrote a really incredible book titled Bible Truth About Women, What They Don’t Tell You. And Lydia has a wonderful blog, lydiakaiser.com, that I highly recommend. Thank you so much for being here today, Lydia.

Lydia Grace Kaiser (00:34)
Thanks for having me, Ruth.

Ruth Perry (00:35)
Before we talk about your book, can we just go back and hear more about you and where you come from and especially about your faith journey, where it started to where you are now?

Lydia Grace Kaiser (00:45)
Okay, well, right now I’m fifty-nine years old. I have three adult children. I used to be able to say they’re all in their twenties, but the oldest one just turned 30. And I homeschooled my kids all the way through high school. And so that’s a big part of my education was that I, you know, got the education, the classical education that I never got before by teaching them. So it was a lot of work, but I’m grateful for it.

We have three grandboys. We live in rural Missouri with a little bit of acreage and chickens and bees. My education is I graduated from Pensacola Christian College in 1988. And I’ve been in ministry for four decades, mostly working with parachurch organizations because of the restrictions in church. I have done a lot of teaching, you know, training volunteers.

Administration, marketing, all of the admin stuff too, you know. And I have studied and taught the Bible all of my life, but in my 50s I became interested in this topic and realized that I did not have the research skills to study it adequately. I would read from this person, they would say this, and that person says that, and I’m like, I don’t know who’s right. You know, they say, well.

This Greek word or that Hebrew word, and how do I check that? You know, so I enrolled in seminary in my 50s. I

Ruth Perry (02:08)
That’s spectacular.

Lydia Grace Kaiser (02:09)
Yeah, well, I finally had the freedom to learn what I wanted to learn instead of worrying about what

I needed to teach everybody else around me, you know. So I just encourage people that it’s never too late. but my first class was hermeneutics. I went to Bethel Seminary in St. Paul, Minnesota.

Not to be confused with the other three Bethels, I think. But yeah, my first class was hermeneutics, and it was just mind blowing. My professor was a internationally renowned translator, which was just fantastic. But I was able to learn all of the challenges involved with translation. You know, all my life I had just, I had believed

That there could be a literal unquote word-for-word translation. And translators would say, well, I’m just giving you what the text says. I’m not interpreting. Oh yes, they are. You cannot translate without interpreting. I learned how to look up the Hebrew and Greek words for myself and check what people are saying and check different types of commentaries

with differing views and see how well they supported what they were saying. And that also helped me decide which theologian scholars I trust when I’m doing a deep dive into something, how to check their background and see really how much study they have in that particular topic. For example, Marg Mosco is my most cited scholar in my book.

Let me spell her name, M-O-W-C-Z-K-O, for those who want to look her up. But she’s not just a great translator, but someone who’s put in thousands of hours on these particular passages and issues, you know, comparing the passages and researching original documents. So she’s able to articulate the reasons for her conclusion that’s on a whole different level than, say, someone who’s also a great scholar, but they spend 99.2

Nine percent of their time on other topics or issues, you know? So yeah, people say, Well, I follow so-and-so, or I follow so-and-so. And I’m like, Great, I’m sure they’re a good scholar, but have they studied this topic like this? You know? So yeah, there is a little about

Ruth Perry (04:21)
Exactly.

Lydia Grace Kaiser (04:22)
me and my education.

Ruth Perry (04:24)
So just responding to that introduction, first of all, I’m a homeschool mom as well. I homeschooled three children. I had two boys and a girl.

Lydia Grace Kaiser (04:31)
Wow. Same here. Yeah.

Ruth Perry (04:33)
Were they two boys oldest and then a girl like me? Yeah.

Lydia Grace Kaiser (04:36)
No, the girl was in the middle. Yeah.

Ruth Perry (04:39)
Well, my oldest, he ended up going to public middle school. He didn’t love homeschooling. And so that worked out well for him. And then my next two homeschool through middle school, but then they went to high school because I was really burnt out by the time. It did so much work.

Lydia Grace Kaiser (04:55)
yeah, it’s a slog. It it really is a slog.

Ruth Perry (04:58)
So I commend you for that. How are they doing now?

Lydia Grace Kaiser (05:02)
Well, they’re all entrepreneurs. None of them felt the need to go to college, which made me feel like a failure because they didn’t just love education so much. But it turned out they just know how to teach themselves whatever they need to learn, and they’ve all

Ruth Perry (05:14)
Yeah.

Lydia Grace Kaiser (05:15)
been very successful in their chosen careers. I mean, some careers need advanced education and others don’t. And so, I guess we dodge three bullets without having to help out with, you know, higher education, but they’re all doing very well in their chosen fields. And, they’re all so different. The kids are different, you know, and it’s been fun

Ruth Perry (05:34)
Yeah.

Lydia Grace Kaiser (05:34)
to watch them blossom in their own ways.

Ruth Perry (05:36)
Secondly, you said you went to Pensacola. It’s Baptist, right?

Lydia Grace Kaiser (05:40)
No, but it’s Baptistic, very Baptistic. You could probably say it leans Reformed,

Ruth Perry (05:43)
Mm-hmm. And Bethel is too,

Lydia Grace Kaiser (05:47)
Bethel is from a old Swedish Baptist heritage, yes. The difference is they are a little broader. I don’t wanna speak for them. I wouldn’t say they leaned reformed, but you know, they’re in the same town as Bethlehem. Which was Pipers and and

Ruth Perry (06:03)
Yeah.

Lydia Grace Kaiser (06:04)
they’re not the same. I’ll just say that.

Ruth Perry (06:06)
Okay. That yeah, I was wondering if there was a relationship there.

Lydia Grace Kaiser (06:09)
So yeah, they’re different. They are also egalitarian. They have female professors and it was so refreshing to just engage with male professors that treated me so respectfully, honestly, and male students as well. It was a different experience than what I have felt in the past.

Ruth Perry (06:29)
So did you grow up believing that there were restrictions on w what roles and what things women could do in the church and the home?

Lydia Grace Kaiser (06:38)
Absolutely. And it was pretty much pounded into my my brain, you know, all these particular verses like Sarah called her Abraham Lord, and women need to be silent, and women are not to have any authority or teach. And so the practical outcome of that is that

All females really we knew not to give our opinion if it differed from the males in our presence. Especially my father who was a Baptist pastor, if any female gave her opinion in his presence, he would, say things about how she needed to shut her sassy mouth. I mean, he just really did not like to hear from women.

Ruth Perry (07:13)
So you’ve been on a journey in that regard too then changing your views.

Lydia Grace Kaiser (07:16)
Right, right. Well, and I have a high regard for scripture and it appears that there are some passages that do restrict women and so I’m just like, well, can’t argue with the Bible, you know, you just gotta use the plain reading of the word and so I thought that that’s what it said for the longest time, even though I looked around me and saw that it didn’t really work. I saw that men basically lost their partners, with this teaching and it’s harmful for men as well as women. They lose their partner and just everything is put on them. And the women are also taught, well, something doesn’t go right, it’s all his fault, because it ultimately, it’s on his shoulders. And so the women can just play along with that and like, well, it’s his fault, you know.

And so that’s is hard on him. He’s more likely to feel defensive or or just entitled. You know, he can go one way or the other and just become extreme in those feelings. And you know, no no person should feel like it’s all on them sink or swim. It should be we’re in this together, we’ll make these decisions together. And if it doesn’t go well, it’s on both of us, you know, and we

Ruth Perry (08:26)
Yeah.

Lydia Grace Kaiser (08:27)
We celebrate together and we mourn together. The practicalities of so called complementarian teaching are are just really devastating even for relationships.

Ruth Perry (08:38)
I also was a Baptist minister’s daughter and very

Lydia Grace Kaiser (08:42)
really?

Ruth Perry (08:43)
like grew up I wanna say like twenty something years I read the Bible through that patriarchal complementarian lens, never questioned it, it just made perfect sense and I didn’t recognize that I was culturally conditioned to accept it as making sense because that was the system I grew up in. Those were the gender norms and the cultural norms that I was used to. And so it was definitely a lens. Can you tell me about some of the things that started to create cognitive dissonance for you about complementarianism?

Lydia Grace Kaiser (09:15)
Sure. But before I forget, you’re talking about the cultural lens. I don’t know if you’re on Substack.

Ruth Perry (09:21)
Yeah.

Lydia Grace Kaiser (09:21)
Nick O’Brien just posted something about the culture and how the culture is very patriarchal. And so when these complimentarians say that we’re just giving into the culture, it’s not at all true. And he goes through every aspect of the culture and you know gives.

Hard stats. I mean, it’s just, it’s pretty amazing.

Ruth Perry (09:42)
I’ll look that up.

Lydia Grace Kaiser (09:43)
Yeah. Okay, so how did I first start getting feeling the dissonance? So I stumbled across a explanation for First Corinthians 14, 34 and 35, where you know someone just said something about how if this

Can be if if this is supposed to be taken at face value that women are to be silent in the church, well then it contradicts other scripture, like in this very same book, 1 Corinthians 11, where it says, when women are speaking and praying and prophesying in the church gathering, they should have their head covered. And I realized I have always been in circles it worried about whether we should have our heads covered, more so than the fact that.

Paul is nonchalantly mentioning that women are speaking and leading really in prayer and prophesying. And so, yeah, there, I had always been taught that the Bible doesn’t contradict itself. And I realized that every other topic out there, you know, biblical topic, if we see an apparent contradiction, we work really hard to resolve that.

You know, we look at all the possibilities, we do word studies, we have these long explanations for in order to reconcile that. But I’ve never seen that done with these passages about women. And the more I looked, I you know, I thought, well, if we’ve done that with that passage, what about the other passages? Have have we have we missed things or or failed to reconcile contradictions with those, but so I began looking more closely. I took my rose colored glasses off. Actually they weren’t rose colored, but I took those lenses off that you were talking about and just started reading a lot more critically and thought, there’s some issues here. I need to learn more. And then I started reading more broadly and that’s when I was like, I don’t know who to believe.

So there I went to seminary.

Ruth Perry (11:35)
Well the subtitle of your book is What They Don’t Tell You. What

Lydia Grace Kaiser (11:38)
Mm.

Ruth Perry (11:39)
are some of the biggest things that you believe Christians have not been told about women in scripture?

Lydia Grace Kaiser (11:44)
Okay, well, what I do with the book is I compiled 20 categories of misleading tactics used by translators and interpreters, you know, some by translators and more by interpreters. And I just number them in the introduction of the book, one through twenty. And then I go through all of the passages and explain which of those misleading tactics has been used with that passage. And then I summarize in a little sidebar. So if someone is just like, I’m not a book reader, well just flip through and read the sidebars and you’ll get the gist. But yeah, there’s 124 sidebars or examples. And sadly it’s it’s not exhaustive. But did I answer your question?

Ruth Perry (12:26)
That was helpful, but I was asking about the subtitle, what they don’t tell you. Yeah.

Lydia Grace Kaiser (12:30)
what they don’t tell you. Yeah. So like what I was explaining about challenges to translation, and the whole idea of plain reading, what I thought was that I could read my English Bible and those English words were, just as straight from heaven and straight from God as if those English translators were filled with the Spirit and led by the Spirit, just the same as the original authors. And yet I have also been told all my life that the Bible is inerrant in the original languages. And finally I thought, I haven’t been living that way. I have not been reading my English Bible as if it’s not completely inerrant.

I’ve been putting far too much weight on every one of those English words, every one of them. And so, what they don’t tell you is translators make a lot of decisions. For example, take a verse that talks about the word head. Ephesians 1:22 through 23. And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over, you hear that preposition, over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all. So the translator needs to put a preposition in there. And it’s up to them to decide which preposition to use. And they could use the word of, because there’s not a preposition, there’s not any indication of superiority or overness in the Greek there. But they, because of their ideology, they choose the word over. And now listen to how it sounds if they had chosen the word of. And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head of all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness.

Okay, here’s another thing that they don’t tell you is that some of these words that we take as a metaphor, such as head is a CEO or the boss, they didn’t have that same metaphor back then, the first century. It was coming in as a military term, but in ordinary usage, not so much, and especially prior to Paul’s writings, the idea of head, they thought that the head provided everything that the body needs. It was the source of provision. they even one of the philosophers even taught that the semen comes from the head, everything comes from the head.

So when you realize, okay, Paul wrote this to that audience, this is their understanding, this is what they would have understood when they read these words. then you see that this particular verse, and also in Ephesians 4, he says, We are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint, with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.

Do you see the source of provision that is being described? So this is how Paul uses the word. And then elsewhere, there’s a couple verses where it indicates more of he is the head of the whole universe, that sort of thing. But when he’s talking about the church, there’s an entirely different nuance there. And so understanding that the church doesn’t tell you that there are these nuances to translation and that these verses have other ways of being understood. So I’ll just leave it at that, although I could go on all day about even just this particular thing with with the head, you know.

Ruth Perry (15:55)
Yeah, it’s so true. there’s just a so much conditioning when you grow up in these complementarian churches that the people who aren’t coming to the same conclusions as you about the interpretation of the scriptures are playing fast and loose with scripture or they’re twisting

Lydia Grace Kaiser (16:10)
Well

Ruth Perry (16:11)
or cherry picking and all these things. But then you look

Lydia Grace Kaiser (16:13)
Yeah.

Ruth Perry (16:14)
at it deeply and you realize, well, wait a second. It’s not

Lydia Grace Kaiser (16:18)
And you know,

Ruth Perry (16:19)
the egalitarians doing that.

Lydia Grace Kaiser (16:20)
Yeah, and I hate to even use their word complimentarian because it’s such a misnomer. It’s one way complimenting is what’s happening. And they coined that word in the late 80s. Like I said, I graduated from college in eighty-eight. So as a young person, as I was just learning my deeper theology and hearing some of these words, I didn’t realize they were new words and that I was learning new teaching. This was not around before.

So really hierarchicalists are what they are, or the hierarchy, the hierarchical teaching is a more accurate term for what they are putting out there. And then as far as egalitarian, they’ve used that so pejoratively and then there are some egalitarians who are more extreme where their thinking is more androgynous, like there isn’t a difference between man and and woman, which of course I don’t believe. And so I really like the term mutualist, because what I’m looking for is mutual love and respect. You know, that that’s more of a partnership term.

I think believe that’s what God intended in Genesis, when he made Eve out of Adam’s body so that they would be of one flesh, one material, and then together gave them dominion over the earth. And then in First Corinthians 11, Paul says, yes, woman came from man, but then man comes from woman. And so, you know, everything comes from God. So stop making a big deal out of the fact that Eve came from Adam. Every other man has come from woman ever since, you know. So it was God’s way of showing that we’re equal and yet people have twisted that and just focused on one aspect of it.

Ruth Perry (17:59)
Yeah, absolutely. Can you tell us about the context of the Greco Roman culture and the Jewish culture and how they viewed women and the purity codes that were all enacted at the time that Jesus lived and then how Jesus countered those beliefs in his ministry and his treatment of women?

Lydia Grace Kaiser (18:19)
Sure. Now I go into the some in my book because it’s hard to say the culture was all like this. It was a very varied culture. It had the Greeks, even though we call it the Greco-Roman, the Greeks and the Romans were different in ways. You got your Jewish influence. And then even within the Jewish system, you have, the Sadducees and the Pharisees and the Zealots and the folks who followed Herod, the Hellenists. But there’s there’s just so many aspects of culture that you really can’t say, well, it was all like X.

So for example, I think it’s very interesting that Jesus came when he did, because in the Jewish culture, women were more oppressed, I think, than any time in history before that. You look at all the things that women were doing in the Old Testament, Deborah being both a judge and a prophet, Huldah being consulted by King Josiah. Even though there’s some other very famous prophets who were living at the time, she was his first pick. Did the church ever tell you that, by the way? No, you never heard that in church.

Ruth Perry (19:25)
No.

Lydia Grace Kaiser (19:27)
Yeah, kind of kicked Jeremiah and some others to the curb there to call on Huldah. So Jesus, when he came, when he started his ministry, he was baptized, you know, by John. And then he went out into the wilderness. And then he came back. And the very first thing he did was go to the synagogue. And they handed him the scroll of Isaiah. He turned to Isaiah 61 and he read that passage about the Spirit of the Lord has anointed me, and I’m come to give sight to the blind and freedom to the prisoner and the captives and declare the day of the Lord. And then he rolled it up and said, This day, this is fulfilled in your hearing.

So he kind of gave his manifesto for his ministry, for the start of his ministry. And from then on, he began healing people and treating women who were basically oppressed. I mean, the verse says that he’s bringing good news to the oppressed, he elevates women at every turn. And the Pharisees had come up with something like well, hundreds of extra laws. I think there might have been six hundred laws in the Torah, and they came up with an extra 400 or and a hundred of them restricted women in very specific ways, which really restricted them in society and their movement and their ability to economically and all those things. And so it’s interesting to me that he came at a time when women were more oppressed than at any other time.

But at the same time before the coming of Jesus, you had the new Roman women who were basically they were kind of doing the ancient bra burning type marches, you know. Feminism is very old. But Rome had tried to restrict women and what they could wear and what they could do, and so they wouldn’t have it. And so they marched and threw off everything and they were dressing very extravagantly. This is why in first Timothy it says, you know.

Dress modestly. They weren’t talking about not showing too much skin. They were talking about, not flaunting your wealth, basically. So then this was also affecting the Greek women. For example, in Ephesus, they had the Diana, or also, so there’s a Roman name and there’s a Greek name. So there’s Artemis and Diana are the same. And so you have women a lot more involved in civic affairs. Now, the men still dominated. We want to be clear about that. But the women were moving about much more freely. So you have women like Lydia and Phoebe, who were able to travel and you know, do commerce. I’m sure they had an entourage for safety and that sort of thing, but they were wealthy and in fact, these old Egyptian parchments show that in the first century around 25% of Greco-Roman households were headed by women.

Ruth Perry (22:14)
wow.

Lydia Grace Kaiser (22:15)
So you have a lot of changing power dynamics, but I think that the Jewish women were especially oppressed, and it was the religious people who were oppressing them. And I I feel like the same thing is happening today. We have this resurgence. The Baptists had the conservative resurgence. you have the the new

Ruth Perry (22:35)
Yeah.

Lydia Grace Kaiser (22:36)
Calvinists that are resurging that are very much about restricting women. And so I just wonder if we’re seeing history repeat itself here and if God is not intervening by exposing all of the corruption in today’s church and also helping us women with the with the new tools that we have, with the internet and the ability to call out sin and expose it on a national level. And not let these guys continue to just, go to another town and take another pulpit and, abuse a whole nother congregation of people. So I find all that very interesting. did I answer your question?

Ruth Perry (23:18)
Yeah, so that is the context and then how did Jesus treat women?

Lydia Grace Kaiser (23:23)
Okay, so I have a whole section of my book, part three, is all about the example of Jesus. And the point that I want to make is that we so often, at least in my background, they took the epistles in what they thought were clear passages and put that back on Jesus and held that as the highest standard. Whereas we need to remember that the authors of the epistles were followers of Jesus, you know, not the other way around. And so we really need to start with Jesus. What did he say? What did he do?

And it’s interesting, for example, Mark 15, names women who follow Jesus into Galilee and minister to him, and it references quote, Many other women who would come up with him to Jerusalem. And then of course you have Luke 8, 1 through 3 names women who traveled all the time with Jesus. And then also says, quote, many other unquote women. Now the really interesting thing in Mark 15 is that this word for for the women who follow him is Akalitheo, which is the language of discipleship.

So that is shocking in its first century Jewish context. And it confirms that unlike other rabbis, Jesus elevated women to the position of disciple. They were considered just as much a disciple as the Twelve or anyone else who was in the entourage. And then, of course, we have the story of Mary sitting at Jesus’ feet, and Jesus will not let that be taken from her.

So I’m sure that just threw the door open, and as many women as as could t took that posture. And we also want to remember that the first century posture there of someone who quote, sat at someone’s feet, was not just doing it to sit there in adoration. This is the picture I always had, you know, the woman

Ruth Perry (25:18)
Yeah.

Lydia Grace Kaiser (25:19)
was just sitting there, like, you know, hands folded, looking adoringly at Jesus. No. The the context here is that people would follow the master, the rabbi, in order to then turn around and have followers themselves. Now, of course, with Jesus, the followers should not think that they become greater, a greater teacher, you know, like you’ve got Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle, and they each tried to, perhaps eclipse the other. But this is a long tradition of choosing a rabbi or a master and following them and then continuing to teach. And, we totally missed that. I mean, again, have you ever heard that in church?

Ruth Perry (26:01)
No. No.

Lydia Grace Kaiser (26:03)
so yeah, we could go into all the stories where Jesus gave special attention to women touched them, commended them like the woman with the issue of blood; shouldn’t have even been out of her house while menstruating according to the Pharisaical laws, let alone touching a man’s clothing, you know. And yet Jesus had her say in front of everyone what she did and then commended her.

So the ways he interacted with women just were in your face to those who wanted to hold women back. I just gotta tell one more. Like when Jesus said to the Pharisees Simon, look at this woman. It could have been because some Pharisees wouldn’t even look at women. And he was making him look at her. Or it could just be that he was saying really look. Pay attention to this woman instead of dismissing her. Truly pay attention.

Ruth Perry (26:55)
What do you make of the people who want to say that Mary Magdalene and the women that witnessed the resurrection and were told to go and tell were just giving a testimony they weren’t preaching. Like what do you feel about the squabbling over the language of testifying or sharing versus preaching when it comes to women?

Lydia Grace Kaiser (27:14)
It is straining at a gnat in order to swallow a camel to use Jesus’ words.

Ruth Perry (27:20)
Amen. Yeah.

Lydia Grace Kaiser (27:22)
Because if you look at all of the language from all through the New Testament, for example, I was having a little debate with a man on Facebook due to one of my posts, you know, right?

Ruth Perry (27:33)
Yes.

Lydia Grace Kaiser (27:34)
If they if they stop being civil, I bid them, you know, adios. But this one, you know, was being respectful. And so we w we went back and forth probably 20, 25 times, you know, just and it was very interesting. And I I enjoyed the challenge because it helped me to look. And one of the things he said was, Well, when Priscilla taught Apollos, that word is more of an explaining word. It’s not the same authoritative.

You’re gonna hear that word a lot. Authoritative teaching that is used elsewhere in Acts, and that word was very much available to Luke. So he could have used the more authoritative word, but instead used this explaining word. so because of just having some basic skills, which any of your listeners can acquire, we have these wonderful tools like Bible Hub.

Where you go on there and you pick your passage, you you choose interlinear so that you have the Greek and the English next to each other. You find the English word, you see which words, word or words are are being used, where those English words came from in the Greek, could be one or more. You click on them, you can see everywhere else they’re used and where they come from and what the

core of the word is, what the prefixes and suffixes might be versus the root. And you can do your own word studies. You know, again, you gotta be careful not to draw big conclusions without checking with maybe some commentators. But you can at least do some exploring. So what I did was I just went to this so-called authoritative word, and then I discovered that, look, here it is in Colossians 3:16, where the entire congregation is being told to teach one another. Everyone in the congregation. So Paul uses these words, and Luke and all of them use these words very freely for all kinds of things. And so, all Luke was saying was, they sat down at length to explain because Apollos was teaching this and he wasn’t quite there yet, so they had to.

It says explain to him more fully. So this was a lot of teachings. That’s all he’s trying to do is say, this took some significant explaining. It wasn’t a ps come over here to the foyer for a second, you know. So yeah, this hair splitting about whether the women were just delivering some news or

bringing an authoritative message from Jesus. The big problem with all of this debate is a huge misunderstanding about authority. Let me get back to that for a minute, because

Ruth Perry (30:07)
Yeah.

Lydia Grace Kaiser (30:09)
when we start thinking that there’s a special kind of authority that people have, then I think that’s where we really get off the rails. I think we need to remember that it’s the word of God that has the authority, not the vessel who’s delivering the word. It’s the Holy Spirit that has the authority that gives me the word, that gives me a prophecy, you know, a word that I need to deliver to someone. I’m impressed to deliver that. It has nothing, really nothing to do about me except perhaps my level of surrender and a willingness to listen, willingness to obey. And we all know, we’ve heard the stories, I could name names of people, vile men that we know who delivered the truth, the word of God, and lives were changed.

Ruth Perry (30:58)
Yeah.

Lydia Grace Kaiser (30:58)
Millions around the globe. And then we find out, say after he’s dead, the horrific things he was doing. Did that particular man have authority? No, it was the word of God that had the authority, it was the Holy Spirit. And that’s

Ruth Perry (31:12)
Yeah.

Lydia Grace Kaiser (31:12)
the only comfort that I can take. Because so many people, they leave the church and they say it’s a bunch of hypocrites or it it doesn’t work because look at these people, they’re messing up and

You know, my own father was very abusive to my mother. And so for years I was like, How could he have the Holy Spirit? How could he be a Christian even? And when he was physically and verbally and emotionally and spiritually abusive, you know, in every way. And we have our besetting sins that we need to humbly address. But God will still use us when we deliver the truth from his word. And so it’s something to be cautious about in that we know that we we will not have reward in heaven if we didn’t do it with the right motive. Paul said some people preach out of jealousy.

Ruth Perry (32:03)
Yeah.

Lydia Grace Kaiser (32:03)
You know. and yet it’s also a comfort in that we know that with the right surrender and humility that God can still use us even though we’re not perfect and at all times holy, you know. So

Ruth Perry (32:19)
I like your point a lot better than the one I’ve heard a lot is well, God spoke through Balan’s document so he can use women too.

Lydia Grace Kaiser (32:27)
Yeah, that’s cute. but it’s still kind of putting down the vessel as if women are just one step above a donkey.

Ruth Perry (32:32)
Absolutely. Yeah.

Lydia Grace Kaiser (32:35)
And the fact is, we’re

created in God’s image exactly the same way men are. It says male and female, he created them in his image, he created them. And the hierarchalists will say, Well, sure, they’re ontologically equal, but just have different roles. But then here comes the so-called roles. One of them is to always be spiritually over and authoritatively over the other, only because they were born with the right physical, you know, is not at all logical, even. It’s just

Ruth Perry (33:08)
Yeah.

Lydia Grace Kaiser (33:09)
it is not obeying scripture, it is finding a way around scripture. Scripture couldn’t be, you know, okay, I shouldn’t use the word clear. I’m trying not to say clear, but they’re always saying clear. I could

Ruth Perry (33:20)
Yeah.

Lydia Grace Kaiser (33:21)
I could say it’s clear because God said, Look, I’m giving you dominion together. He had all these opportunities to say, man is the boss, man is overwoman, woman follow man. He never said any of those things. We’re just adding to scripture and assuming those things because that’s what people want to believe and assume. And then they flip it around and say that’s what we’re doing. It’s it’s it’s kind of maddening.

Ruth Perry (33:44)
Yeah, it really is. And I also really liked when you talked about Paul and the way that he spoke about people in ministry. And then how we turned those into

Lydia Grace Kaiser (33:51)
Right,

Ruth Perry (33:53)
titles. Can you tell us about that?

Lydia Grace Kaiser (33:55)
Yeah, again, all these words, he’s trying very hard to just use servant based egalitarian type words like co-worker. This this guy’s my coworker. You know, he doesn’t say I’m the senior elder and he is the junior elder, the assistant elder, or anything like that. It’s these diaconos servant, and co-worker type words, not titles, and yet this whole debate is based on titles. And now what functions supposedly go with those titles?

It’s getting to the point where it’s just untenable because how are we going to distinguish which functions are pastoral, when Al Moeller’s amendment said the pastoral functions, including preaching to the gathered assembly. Well, what are the other functions? You know, there’s a lot of things that are pastoral, and women are especially good at taking care of others and shepherding them. So where is it gonna end? It’s just so confusing. It is just unbiblical because yeah, Paul does not set up all these titles.

Ruth Perry (35:03)
Well, what would you say to somebody who is at the beginning of this journey of questioning complementarianism, but they have that fear of losing their community and their identity and you know, it’s a costly journey. What would you say to them?

Lydia Grace Kaiser (35:18)
Well, first I’d say read my book, because you really need to understand this inside and out and have deep conviction and not only conviction but excitement. I mean, the biggest tragedy in all of this is that our view of God has suffered. And so when you get a true and proper perspective of God through all this, and how actually God Himself is incredibly humble and what he’s done for us. It helps not only give courage, but it helps you to enter into that suffering with Jesus that is spoken of in Philippians, and you understand God’s heart, you feel his heart for you, and it helps you on that tough journey.

Because yeah, there will be a personal price to pay, more so for some people than others. But then you can know that Jesus is walking through this with you because he did it first. He was highly misunderstood, by family, especially, by people close to him and his community and the town that he grew up in, all the people that they knew his character, they knew he was a good, honest, hardworking businessman and took care of his widowed mother and siblings, and they knew all these things about his character. And yet they dismissed him. And, we’re told to expect the same. And sometimes we think that’s too hard. And sometimes we think, well, I’m not going to make that stand because I can’t bear to lose this that or the other. But what you don’t want to lose is Jesus. You don’t want to lose your relationship with Jesus. And this is so precious. I can’t even tell you how very, very precious it will be to you.

Ruth Perry (36:56)
I highly recommend your book. It was excellent. I really enjoyed reading it. I related and I learned new things. I’ve been on this journey myself for a long time, and I learned a lot from you. And so thank you for all the hard work that you’ve done. And I’m just so excited that God has led you into this study and that He’s gifted you so beautifully. And I pray that God uses you in amazing ways.

Can I give you the last word, Lydia, before we sign off? Is there anything else you’d like to share with my audience?

Lydia Grace Kaiser (37:23)
Well, thank you for that encouragement. I spent I think six years on the book. And no one but God knows, how much work that was and the price I’ve paid for coming out with it. And so just hearing that from you is really encouraging. I guess my last word is just that God is all about elevating and empowering others.

And I would like for each of your listeners to be free. Especially if you’re a woman who’s felt inhibited, who’s felt confused by why God would give you perhaps leadership or teaching abilities, but then tell you to hold back and wait for a man to do it. Just be free. Be free to say what God puts on your heart, with graciousness, of course, but with the same courage and conviction that any man would say it. Be free to dream and let God use you in big and small ways that you didn’t feel free to dream about before.

And be free to embrace the role of pastor, you know, to recognize that you’re a shepherd of those whom God has given you to disciple, even if it’s just a small group. Take that seriously and be a shepherd to those people. You don’t have to wait for someone to ordain you. You just do it. You have ordination from the Holy Spirit. And you could even consider starting and leading a small microchurch in your neighborhood or friend circle. And whatever dream God gives you. Find a common interest with some other people and bring the Lord into that and lead however God leads you. And I tell you what, let your life open up with all kinds of possibilities and it’ll be exciting.

Ruth Perry (38:57)
Amen and praise God. Yeah. Thank you for that good word and thank you for being here today. God bless.

Lydia Grace Kaiser (39:03)
Thank you for having me, Ruth.

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025 I Dr. Rob Dixon on Challenging God’s People to Embrace Gender Equality

Posted on September 2, 2026 by | Leave a comment
Dr. Rob Dixon has written Allies in Ministry, Together in Ministry, and Penny Preaches. Click the links to add them to your library!

I was so delighted to meet my old friend, Dr. Rob Dixon, for a face-to-face conversation after being internet friends for close to fifteen years! In this insightful interview, we talked about Dr. Dixon’s new book, Allies in Ministry, and he shared his journey of advocating for women in ministry, biblical perspectives on gender equality, and practical steps for developing allies within the church. Listen to our conversation to discover how his research and personal experiences challenge traditional views and promote justice and mission expansion, through the full inclusion of women in ministry.

You can learn more about Dr. Rob Dixon on his website, drrobdixon.com, and find contact information there if you would like him to coach, train or speak with your organization.
You can also follow him on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, and Substack. 

Please enjoy this episode of The Beautiful Kingdom Builders podcast on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, Substack, and more! 

TRANSCRIPT:

Ruth Perry (00:15)
My guest today is Rob Dixon. He’s a writer, trainer, and consultant with over three decades of ministry experience, known for his work promoting equal partnership between men and women in ministry. And he is a distinguished scholar at Fuller Theological Seminary who teaches at Fresno Pacific University. And you’ve served on the Intervarsity Christian Fellowship staff for nearly 30 years. I feel like the way that I know you best is from your writing. I started reading your blog, Challenging Tertullian, many, many years ago. And

Rob Dixon (00:45)
Yeah, yeah.

Ruth Perry (00:47)
I also feel like I know you personally, but this is the first time that we’ve spoken. So I’m delighted to have you, Rob, and I’m delighted to talk about your work today. Thank you so much for being here.

Rob Dixon (00:57)
Thanks for having me. And boy, that’s a callback. The Challenging Tertullian blog of like, I don’t know, twenty fifteen, something like that, earlier maybe. So yeah, wow. Great to meet you in person, Ruth.

Ruth Perry (01:08)
I probably started following you right when you started doing that because I was devouring anything I could find about women in ministry at the time. I had been called by God to be in ministry, but I was in circumstances where I wasn’t getting that support. I didn’t have allies at the time. And so I was finding them online and I’m just really grateful that I found you and many other men who have been great allies and great sources of encouragement and information and scholarship. And one of the books that I have by you, I know you’ve written multiple books. Penny Preaches a great children’s book by Amy Dixon and Rob Dixon. It’s delightful. Highly recommend it. Get that for your kids, sons and daughters.

Rob Dixon (01:53)
Yeah, yeah, thank you. That’s a definitely a cherished you know, process writing that book with Amy, my wife. she’s a full-time picture book writer. And so if listeners like the storyline, that would be me. If they like anything else about the book, the characters, the dialogue, you know, that would be all Amy. So we had a great time working on that together. So yeah, it’s what’s been fun for me is to watch women who have been in ministry and have fought the battles, like I’m sure that you fought Ruth and have been through the the struggle to read that book and feel like you know, boy, I wish I’d had this when I was younger and coming up in ministry, but what a gift to the church. And so I hope so. I hope it pushes the conversation down to when we’re raising kids and we can talk about things that matter, like women in ministry. So yeah, thanks for thanks for the shout out for Penny.

Ruth Perry (02:44)
Well, I’m always really curious to know people’s faith journeys and their stories. Do you mind going back and telling us when you came to faith and how your faith has grown and have you always been an ally for women in ministry?

Rob Dixon (02:56)
Yeah, happy to happy to share about that. So yeah, I grew up in the church. I grew up in a church down in LA with my family. I mean, it was like what we did. It was it was the thing that marked or one of the things that marked the Dixon family was we were really involved in our church. In fact, when I joined the church, became a Christian, was baptized, joined the church, like my dad, my uncle, and my grandfather, I think were all on the session, the leadership team of the church and greeted me. So that was what we did as a family.

Interestingly for me, where I am now, hoping to be an ally to women in ministry, that did have its sort of sovereign foundations, I think would be a good word for it in my childhood experience. So as part of a church that endorsed the Ministry of Women, they weren’t perfect about it, but women were on the pastoral staff, women would preach from time to time. And then on top of that, in my family I’m not saying the men in my family were spiritual weaklings or something, but definitely the women in my family were the spiritual drivers in a lot of ways. So my grandma, both grandmas, super involved in in issues of faith. My grandma on my dad’s side was a prayer warrior. on my mom’s side, she had become a Christian later in life and her faith was vibrant. and then my mom as well. So I always identify with is it Timothy in 2 Timothy, who and when Paul reminds Timothy of his faith heritage that flowed through his mom and his grandma, Lois and Eunice, I think. And so I always think of that too for me. So yeah, I think I had a really good foundation to be where I am now based on some of those life experiences early on.

Ruth Perry (04:28)
So when was it that you realized this was an issue that you really cared about passionately enough that you would devote your life’s work to it?

Rob Dixon (04:36)
Yeah, great question. I I think coming out of that sovereign foundation phase, I carried a value for women in ministry and I would have said if you’d asked me, Should women be in ministry, absolutely, of course, why not? Let’s do it. but I think there’s a difference between and I see this in a lot of guys that I work with, there’s a difference between holding a value and then holding it as a conviction. and I think for men and for women too probably, we need to make that pivot from yeah, I endorse this, I have a value for it, but I’m I’m I’m actually now convicted of this because conviction, and this came out of my research for my doctoral work, conviction carries with it this value with an intent to act. There’s a the it’s a deeper thing.

And so for me that process of shifting from, yeah, sure, women should lead to, women should lead. That that shift happened when I first started in ministry, so I came on staff with Intervarsity in the what was this way back, Ruth, in the in the mid 90s, late 90s, I came on staff, and early on, I was ministering in a University’s college ministry, and I was ministering in a part of California that’s more conservative. The churches tend to be more conservative, and so this would flare up as an issue every year, sometimes more than once a year.

And I could tell a lot of stories, but at one point I had a pastor sit me down and tell me I was being a false teacher. And he just went deep. I mean he was on and on about being a false teacher and I was like, Why? And he goes, Well partly because you are allowing women to preach.

And at that point in my journey, I hadn’t done a ton of the theological study, the biblical work. but boy, after that experience of being called a false teacher, for about an hour, I mean it was really awkward. I just launched into this season of study and preparation. And I think that would be one moment of of several where I was really galvanized from, yeah, this is something we should care about too. we’re gonna care about this now.

And I actually emerged from that season kind of militant about things. Like if you weren’t an egalitarian, if you weren’t pro-women ministry, I was on the war path a little bit. And a mentor of mine finally at one point sat me down and said, Look, you need to learn how to hold your conviction with humility. And that’s been a good word for me then and it’s a good word for me now. Yeah.

Ruth Perry (06:48)
I was curious about if you like I knew that you had experienced the cost of your conviction because I experience it in a lot of microaggressions and in people outright telling me I don’t believe in women in ministry just as I meet people and go about my life and I’m a woman in ministry and people make sure that they let me know that they’re not okay with that. But

Rob Dixon (07:08)
So sad. Yep.

Ruth Perry (07:10)
I know that even for you being a man in ministry, having that view, I knew that there was a cost that you had.

Rob Dixon (07:17)
Yeah.

Ruth Perry (07:17)
Have you experienced that cost in other ways besides that one conversation?

Rob Dixon (07:22)
Sure, yeah. Yeah, so in my latest book, Allies in Ministry, I lay out a pathway for developing men into more effective allies to women in ministry and one of the steps is called The Pushback Step. And I I think in a lot of ways, as a guy I don’t think you can fully think of yourself as an ally until you’ve experienced some degree of pushback because of your convictions and because of your advocacy, your allyship. And so I think that comes with the territory a little bit. Sometimes when I’m talking with a guy who w would aspire to be an ally and I ask about pushback, no, I haven’t really done that yet. And then my question is, well, maybe you should be doing more to advocate or to be an ally to women in ministry.

I mean, there’s a lot of stories I could tell you. I mean, another one kind of in that same era where I had the false teacher conversation was I was working with a student who the year prior had been mentored by my wife Amy. This is what we did back then. We had up and coming leaders and we assigned them to Amy’s leadership and mentoring because she was so good at leading a Bible study and she could develop them and then after nine months they’d be prepared to lead their own small group.

And so at the end of that year prior, he had told Amy the thing that maybe all ministers want to hear. Like, I’ve thank you so much. I’ve grown so much under your leadership this year, more than ever in my life with God. I’m so grateful. It was like the thing that you put on the bulletin board, like for really tough ministry days, right?

And fast forward a few months, and he has been through this process with his church of discerning his theology on women and leadership, and he had emerged from that process in a more restrictive position, complementarian would be the term that gets used sometimes in theological circles. Anyway, he’s telling me about his journey, and he’s arrived in this place of conviction that women should not lead and develop men. And and at the end, I’m asking all these questions, and at the end of about an hour, Ruth, I ask him the question I’ve been waiting to ask him since the beginning, which is: hey, I know what you told Amy last year, that you grew more last year under her leadership than in any year prior in your life with God, and I want to know how you’re holding that in light of what you’re telling me now and he pauses for a second, he thinks about it, he looks at me and he says, That was God using Amy in spite of her disobedience.

And a lot of feelings went through me in that moment, right? I mean, you’re talking about my wife here, buddy, you know, and I think I had a lot of hostility in that initial response, but I think that story has, I mean, that was a story of sort of this became personal for me, right? Like this was again not some sort of theological conversation that’s happening in the abstract. Now your theology, I’m talking to the student, has forced you to conclude that my wife’s sacrificial, laying down her life kind of service was in some way sin. And so I think I mean it’s maybe not a story of personal pushback, but definitely a story of like I’m invested in this thing in a way that I wasn’t before. and that really was another galvanizing kind of moment for me as a young ally.

Ruth Perry (10:08)
Can you tell us how you would defend your view of women being in full equality in the church and the home from a biblical basis?

Rob Dixon (10:16)
Yeah. Yeah, sure. I mean I should clarify I’m not a theologian, right? So there are there are great books out there and I’m sure you’ve had people on your podcast over the years that have written great theological books. My my book, my first book, Together in Ministry, has a chapter on the theology of it all and it makes appearances at other points. But where I would start, I think, is actually to ask the question, Are you open to exploring the whole of the scriptures?

And what all of the scriptures have to say on the topic of women in ministry. I think so much of the conversation starts and sometimes ends with First Timothy two. That’s an important passage. it’s deserving of its place in the discussion. But if I can get someone, if I could convince someone to start in Genesis and work our way all the way through the old testament, look at Jesus and how Jesus interacts with women, and then get to the epistles and the praxis of the first church.

And the effects of the cross. I mean, if we can cover that whole gamut, I’m pretty confident that at least it will challenge someone’s perspective and it might even change it. Because I think someone sometimes we take a verse often out of context and we say, Well, this must be true. That verse, again, it’s important, but let’s look at it in the whole of the scriptures. Sometimes I use the metaphor, you know, scripture’s like a symphony, and every piece of scripture is playing on the same sheet music with the same beat and the same melody and all of that. I mean I have older kids now, but I remember when they were in orchestra and it didn’t sound so good, right? And the scripture shouldn’t sound bad. It should sound excellent. It should sound perfect. It should be integrated, right? And so I think let’s look at the whole piece of sheet music and not just one kind of measure, to use the metaphor.

Ruth Perry (11:55)
Especially when you’re talking about student orchestra which I was definitely in back in the day. We sounded better by our performance date, but yeah. You gotta work it out, right?

Rob Dixon (12:04)
Yes. Yes. You do. And I think just to say, I meet a lot of Christians that have a theology on women in ministry, but it’s something they picked up from their church, this the vibes in their church maybe, or a sermon a pastor preached once upon a time, or an article they read, or the family of origin.

But they haven’t done the actual work themselves in the text. And so one of the things I always try to encourage folks is to actually roll up your sleeves. Ideally with other people under the leadership of the spirit, get into the passages yourself and do your own work on this, right? Again, I think we breathe the air of whatever theological air we’re around. that’s not bad, but I think it’s better to do work in the scriptures on this yourself.

Ruth Perry (12:46)
And you really have to learn to recognize the power that the gatekeepers hold because I grew up in a complementarian tradition and I was always warned. I mean, it was specifically a warning to not read outside of your tradition and not listen to people outside of your tradition. And so I do think that that piece of learning the humility of listening to people who think differently than you is really impactful and powerful, but scary.

Rob Dixon (13:12)
Yeah. Yeah, I mean there’s Yeah, yeah. There’s your theology and then there’s how you hold your theology, which I think it’s almost as important, if not more important sometimes, is actually how you hold your theology, right? And I think I always want to be the kind of person, Lord may it be so, that is able to dialogue with people who think differently than I do, and learn. I mean, I think the point at which you think you’re fully arrived theologically is the point where you need to be careful.

Because there’s a group of guys in the New Testament that thought they were fully arrived and when Jesus came on the scene, and we talked about the Pharisees, right? When Jesus came on the scene, it was the wineskins passage. They burst. They couldn’t handle the new thing because they thought they had it all figured out. So just a a word to listeners, be careful, right, about that.

Ruth Perry (13:56)
Yeah, absolutely. I’m taking that word to heart too. It’s a constant reminder where we have to be humble. And there’s all those one another commands in the New Testament where we’re supposed to consider others before ourselves. And how often do we just hold our own views so tightly that we’re not able to do that?

Rob Dixon (14:12)
Yeah, that’s right. Yep. Amen.

Ruth Perry (14:14)
I really loved your language about allyship because that’s something that I’ve learned over the process of my own faith journey is to listen better to other people and listen about their experiences and then interrogate my views especially how my Christian tradition has played a part in a lot of harmful oppression of different groups of people.

And that word ally that you use in your book, it’s really beautiful, but it’s a trigger word, people get triggered by it like they do critical race theory or all these other hot topics. Can you describe why you chose the word ally for your framing of your book?

Rob Dixon (14:51)
Yeah. Yeah, it’s I mean language is interesting, isn’t it? Because over time it accrues baggage, I guess you’d say, or connotations, maybe. So you gotta it’s always important, I think, to define terms. I mean, I think even of the conversation in the women in ministry, like egalitarian, complementary I mean y maybe the place to start even before you get into the scriptures is like, Well, what are we talking about here? Like what what’s your definition of all of these things? So same thing with ally. I chose the word and first of all, I’d say I read there’s a lot of books written about allyship, mostly in the secular space. So I think a book about male allyship in the Christian arena is a gap. Which I was trying to fill a gap in the literary, you know, picture.

And I read a lot of books in the secular space and it’s really helpful to sort of point out different pieces of what it means to be an ally. What so empathy or the idea that allies function interpersonally but also systemically. Or the idea that an ally an ally involves wrestling with their privilege, or the idea that allies listen well to the marginalized community so that they’re not sort of acting in a way that’s actually contrary to what the marginalized community needs. There’s all these sort of themes about allyship that come out in the literature, and you can s you can read all about that in my book. The other thing I like about the term ally is I view it as an umbrella term. There’s not one way to be an ally.

And underneath the umbrella, there’s, I mean, her name’s Karen Catlin. She wrote a book called Better Allies, and she lists off seven different tools, I guess, or expressions of allyship. And I use them in my book. There’s a whole chapter on each of those seven tools, which I think are pretty crucial. And and they run the gamut from quieter expressions of allyship to louder expressions of allyship, right? I mean we think maybe of some of the louder ones like being an upstander, so intervening when there’s injustice, or advocacy, which is a know, I think oftentimes people see it as a synonym to ally, but it’s not, it’s it’s a form of allyship.

And then the quieter expressions would be more like a scholar. I mean, Catlin talks about you’re expressing allyship when you’re learning, or another one would be confidant. So when I’m working with a woman quietly, no one knows about it, but I’m supporting her, I’m giving her resources, I’m encouraging her, that’s being an ally, right? So I love that range because I think some of us as guys are wired to make a splash, maybe the louder end of the spectrum, but others of us we maybe need to start out more on the quieter end of the spectrum and I like the flexibility within that larger term of being an ally.

Ruth Perry (17:19)
Yeah, I think that is really beautiful. I appreciated that in your book because it’s true. No matter who you are, you’ve been given a different set of gifts and personality and experiences and it doesn’t help to compare yourself to others and play that game of am I doing enough? Like if you’re doing something, God sees that and it’s valuable. Yeah. Can you explain in your book you talked about three biblical examples of allies: Jesus, Paul and Boaz, could you talk us through those examples?

Rob Dixon (17:49)
Yeah. Sure, sure can. Yeah. I mean well it’s funny, the Sunday school answer, right? The classic when I was growing up in Sunday school, right, the answer if you answer Jesus, you were right almost all the time, right? With whatever question. I think that’s true with an ally. And if you look at Jesus, he’s I like a quote from Walter Wink, who’s a theologian. He says that in every encounter recorded with with women in the gospels, Jesus is doing something culturally wrong. I’m paraphrasing the quote, but he’s doing s he’s transgressing the culture in some way.

And I think that’s a really cool way to think about Jesus. He is a game changer for women, and he’s doing things. So you could look at all kinds of passages in the book. I talk about like the the hemorrhaging woman from Mark 5. I prefer to think of her as the faith-filled woman, right? She’s it’s that amazing story, right? He’s advocating for her, he’s healing her. you could talk about, you know, the John 4, the woman at the well, and Jesus empowers her for service. So, Jesus is a great example, but I also like to point out Paul and Peter in the New Testament, I think follow Jesus’ example. And Paul gets a lot of what’s the right way to put this?

Well if you Google Paul and Misogyny, there’s a lot of answers that come up, right? Based largely on Timothy two, but if you look more deeply at Paul’s practice, he is faithful to empower women, he’s faithful to commission women, he’s got women that he counts as dear friends and coworkers and in a lot of ways women are a natural part of the narrative for Paul as co-workers. And then Peter’s kind of the same way. Peter talks there’s a couple of passages where Peter really does step into a role as his role as an ally. I mean, I think of how he engages with in the after the crucifixion, I think of the speech he gives in is it Acts two? The Pentecost speech where he talks about women prophesying. So there’s a way in which Peter also fulfills that allyship.

But the original ally in the scriptures is Boaz, like you said, and Boaz, I mean you’re talking about a culture that is I mean what’s the right adjective for this? It’s flagrantly patriarchal. I mean there’s a way in which all power, all cultural power was held by men, and in that context, Boaz does an amazing job as an ally to Ruth and Naomi actually. So for one thing, two levels of that, for one thing, he follows the biblical command to allow widows to glean from his field, and he creates space for Ruth to do that. But he goes a step further and says to his men, be careful with her, like treat her well. Like he goes a step beyond what’s actually written in the Old Testament law.

And then of course the second way he expresses allyship is as the kinsman redeemer to Ruth and Naomi and ultimately he has his place in the genealogy of Jesus because of that, right? So yeah, I think of Boaz is kind of the original the original ally in the scriptures.

Ruth Perry (20:28)
It’s beautiful. Can you talk us through how you did your research for your book and then what the framework is of your book, Allies in Ministry?

Rob Dixon (20:37)
Yeah. So I’m a learner. I love learning new things. And so doing research is kind of my like I mean I I’m trained and d for my doctoral program how to do research, but that’s my natural inclination anyway. So when I have curiosity about something, I’m gathering people that I think have some degree of expertise in that and learning, asking questions. and so I did that with with Allyship. I don’t know how many men, I can’t remember off the top of my head how many men I actually sat with, but a number of one-on-one interviews and then I did focus groups, which are more enjoyable actually as a researcher, because you’re in a room full of people and you’re dialoguing together and people are bouncing off of each other with ideas and it’s just a joy to to do that.

So yeah I learned from a bunch of people and then I sifted all that data, which is the hard work of research I think, is to sit with everything you’ve received and discern what’s you know looking for themes and trends and things like that. And so what emerged from that was this seven-step pathway. The pathway is the language I use for it to get a guy from the starting position through what I call a disruptive encounter, something that shakes their kind of worldview, challenges their paradigms for how the world works, specifically around male privilege. So there’s an encounter that happens a disruptive encounter.

Then the third step is there’s a response to that disruption. So Whoa, what just happened? Let me synthesize that, let me process that. It’s one of the places on the pathway where men can opt out if they’re if they’re unwilling or unable to process that well. The fourth step would be trying stuff out. So initial attempts at allyship. That’s where men use those seven different tools I referenced earlier. Step five is pushback. Because of your allyship you receive pushback. Step six would be continued investment. So the allies’ work is never done. There’s ways to keep growing.

I think for example, I think men may start being familiar with one of the seven tools, but I think in step six you want to start becoming fluent in more of them. And ultimately in step seven, habitual allyship, it’s where you’re a you never want to say you’re a finished product, Ruth. Like I feel like people are always going to be growing. I’m always going to be learning and growing. But step seven would be this sort of place where you’re fluent in all s all seven of the skills. You’ve thought through things, you’re content. I think allies and this is hard for guys sometimes. I think we need to be content not being at the center of things. You know?

I mean Catlin makes this great comparison in her book. She talks about the contrast between being an ally and then being a knight in shining armor that swoops in to save the day and all the glory goes to the ally, right? Like like in step seven, you’re comfortable not being in that place. You’d actually prefer to not be in that place. And I think that’s a pivot for guys in a lot of ways. so anyway, those are my seven seven steps. And I I think the the beauty of the pathway is it my hope anyway is that it gives the church, Big C church, a roadmap. So if you want to be intentional about developing met developing men into more effective allies to women, there’s your here. There’s your roadmap to work with, right? to g to get men there and so I hope people use it that way.

Ruth Perry (23:38)
Yeah, I thought it was spectacular and brilliant the way you did that. It reminded me of like the Critical Journey book about spiritual maturity and that process of going from stages in your faith. And I think that it’s really important and powerful way to look at our maturity process to recognize where we are, first of all.

Rob Dixon (23:58)
Yeah, yeah.

Ruth Perry (24:00)
And where we need to go. I remember when I was in seminary, I’d read the book, Stages of Faith by James Fowler. And at the time I had never doubted anything about my faith. And so the whole book was kind of a puzzle to me. Like, I don’t understand this process at all. But then when I did have a period of time where I had gone through a lot of loss and grief and conflict and my faith was really shaken. Just having that framework from having read that book, I was like, my gosh, this is what’s happening to me. And so I would highly recommend people read your book even if

Rob Dixon (24:34)
Thank you.

Ruth Perry (24:34)
they haven’t really considered where they are on the path. I mean, it’s gonna illuminate things for them in ways that are really helpful. What is the problem with excluding women from ministry, do you think, Rob?

Rob Dixon (24:48)
What is the problem? I mean, where do you want me to start? I mean well, I think first of all, it probably needs to be said it’s contrary to scripture. I mean, if you look in Genesis 1, right, when God has the possibility of setting it all up free of sin, there’s no sin in the world, it’s God’s creation intent.

And you know, there’s these twin affirmations in Genesis one, right, where women and men share the image of God. It’s not like Adam has more of the image of God. You know. And then the second thing is the command to rule over the world and by extension God’s mission is given to women and men together. There’s no hierarchy, there’s no like, you know, Adam, why don’t you lead this process and Eve, give them the support he needs. It’s not like that. It’s this you together go and rule.

And I I think the rest of the scripture sits atop that foundation in Genesis one and confirms it repeatedly. Even when sin comes into the world, God’s intent still remains that women and men would share leadership. So I think the first problem with excluding women is it’s contrary to the scripture and to God’s heart. I mean, I could go on. A another problem for me anyway, as I think about things, I think a lot about mission. I want God’s mission to expand.

And the reality is the church has spent 2,000 plus years now with half the team on the bench, you know, relegated to the bench. And look, we’ve gotten so far with male leadership. Let’s try something different. And my personal conviction is that as women are empowered, released into service, able to use their callings and use their gifts, God’s mission will expand exponentially. And I’m invested in that project. I want that to happen, right?

Maybe a third thing, I’ll stop after this one, although I could keep going probably, but I think there’s a justice element here to me. Right? Women have been marginalized or worse, in the hands of the church for two thousand years. It’s unjust what has happened to women. Every time a woman is prohibited from using her gift, expressing her calling, that’s unjust. it just is. And so I think we have a God who is in the business of making unjust things just again.

And so I would love to see the church I mean, frankly, repent of how we’ve treated women for two thousand years and move in a different direction, which is what repentance entails, right? And so there’s a justice issue too. I again I could go on, but those would be three things. The scriptures, there’s the missional aspect of it, and then there’s the justice piece. Yeah. Thanks for coming to my TedTalk.

Ruth Perry (27:07)
Amen. I agree. Yeah. Was there anything that surprised you while you’re researching and writing your book?

Rob Dixon (27:18)
that’s a great question. I love that question. Yeah, I think what surprised me was the disruptive encounter. I mentioned that earlier. So that second step in the pathway. There’s your starting position and then there’s something that shakes the worldview or challenges the assumptions or paradigms. And I don’t know what I was expecting, but people told me stories that were pretty like intense. I mean back to where I started, I mean my own disruptive encounter was being called a false teacher for an hour. That’s one of many. The other one was having someone judge my wife’s sacrificial good leadership to be sinful.

I mean, those are those are moments that really shake men up in the in the context of male allyship. And I think that was surprising to me to hear some of those stories. Like you can reason with someone and try to convince them. I think that works for some men, but some men like me maybe need that experiential, emotional, earth shattering kind of experience, right? And I think that was surprising to hear that. The good news is I think sometimes disruptive encounters just happen, but I actually think in the church we can engineer them. So we can create disruptive encounters with a lot of pastoral work on the back end, right, to walk men through that disruptive encounter. And I think we should be thinking about that more proactively as a church.

Ruth Perry (28:32)
Something that I’ve learned because I’ve come a long way through my own pathway and I got really passionate like you describe in your book once you learned that this is an injustice, I got really passionate and I got really loud in my advocacy for women in ministry as a woman and I kind of believed I could make change because I changed. So I was really excited about helping other people see the light. Change their evil ways and turn back to God and yeah.

Rob Dixon (28:56)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Ruth Perry (29:00)
But something that I’ve learned is that, you know, as a woman who’s had these experiences of not having my voice valued or listened to and realizing too that because I had grown up in a complementarian culture that I didn’t know my own voice either and I had to find my voice. And just the process of that and never being centered and then realizing, we’re centering men and having these realizations. And for a little while I was at a church where I was really passionate about this, really loud about this, and they changed the pastor’s wife’s title from director of children’s ministries to pastor of children’s ministries. And I was so excited and so thrilled, like I’m making a big change.

But as I’ve moved into other situations, I’ve come to recognize that the people who are most impacted by a problem are the best ones to articulate and explain what’s happening. But they have the least power to make any change. And you have to have proximity to the people who have the power to make change.

Rob Dixon (30:02)
Right.

Ruth Perry (30:03)
And so I think that’s why your book is so important. Where more men need to realize that this is a dynamic and that this is impacting women negatively and it’s impacting all of us negatively, that we all do better when we’re using our gifts for the kingdom and for the common good. and so I just I’m really grateful to you for writing the book and what do you hope will come of the book?

Rob Dixon (30:27)
Yeah. appreciate you saying that. And amen to all of that too. I mean I tell a story in the book, but there’s a guy that I know who I was interviewing and he started to think he knew best. And there was this moment where he advocated for a woman and basically usurped her agency. And there was this sort of like, wait a second, I messed that up. I got too far out ahead, I thought I knew what was best.

So I appreciate that emphasis on learning from and being with sitting with the marginalized community. I think that’s a good word there. I I mean in terms of what I hope, again, I wanna see God’s mission move forward. I wanna see more people love Jesus, follow Jesus. I wanna see I mean that is my big picture hope. And I think releasing women to lead and serve is a step toward that larger end and a crucial step for the church in this season. And so, my hope would be that this book, that the other book, that Penny preaches, that all those books just help that, Challenging Tertullian even, that that that pushes us towards that larger end, right? To to release women, to empower women to lead so that more people will know Jesus, because I really believe that’s gonna happen.

So, yeah, I mean that’s my hope, is let’s move the conversation down the field. Let’s move the church in a helpful way. I’m very aware as I say all of this, right, that the patriarchy is strong. It’s it’s remains strong. I’m starting to think more and more of patriarchy less as a cultural condition and more as like a power principality to use some sort of spiritual warfare kinds of language and so I think we should expect pushback. We should expect the patriarchy to lash back. I mean as we’re talking the Southern Baptists are doing their thing and the patriarchy feels alive and well from the things I read on social media about that. So I think we should expect that and all the more reason to be praying. And all the more reason to be pushing as hard as we can to bring change. So I hope Allies and Ministry helps us with that process process.

Ruth Perry (32:22)
This is a great book to do with a small group and with other people. One like if you just do it with one other person, there’s questions for reflection. where else can people find your work, Rob? And how can they is this something that you come and you teach on if people wanted to engage you that way?

Rob Dixon (32:39)
Yeah, yeah. I love to I always use three words for it to coach. So like an individual leader that wants to be better about empowering women, I can help with that. Consult would be in a second one. So, you know, what’s going on in your organization? Let me help you try to pick places where you could change, be better around this. And then train would be the third one. So always happy to do that on Zoom or in person. People can go to my website.

Let me issue a disclaimer, Ruth. This website is perpetually in process. If you’re expecting like slick graphics you’re in the wrong place. So Rob is not a web designer, but I do dabble and so drrobdixon.com, D R R O B D I X O N dot com.

That’s where you can find me, there’s contact information there as well if you wanna reach out to me to involve me in something that you’re doing. I I always say this, wherever people are talking about the dynamics of women and men working together or allies or any of these things, I wanna be in that conversation. So if there’s a way for listeners to involve me in that, I’m happy to think about that. Yeah.

Ruth Perry (33:37)
I think something that a lot of people assume from me just because I advocate for women in ministry and for women’s equality that I don’t like men. But I have to say I love men, I love my husband, my sons, I love all the allies in ministry that I’ve encountered, I love your work and I’m just so grateful for you and for the many male friendships that I have. And I love men that disagree with me about this too. I want us all, I want the best for all of us. And so I’m just really grateful that you would come on the Beautiful Kingdom Builders today to share about your work. And I’m gonna link to your website in the show notes and to your books. And I hope people check those out. And I’m gonna give you the last word, Rob. Thank you for being here today.

Rob Dixon (34:25)
Yeah, well thanks for having me. You know, listeners obviously know the value of your work, Ruth, and what you do with the Beautiful Kingdom Builders podcast and the other stuff you do on social media. And I just would say blessings to you and may your tribe increase, right? We need more voices advocating for the full inclusion of women in the church. So thanks for all you do.

Ruth Perry (34:45)
Thank you so much. God bless.

Rob Dixon (34:47)
Yeah, you too.

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