I was so delighted to meet my old friend, Dr. Rob Dixon, for a face-to-face conversation after being internet friends for close to fifteen years! In this insightful interview, we talked about Dr. Dixon’s new book, Allies in Ministry, and he shared his journey of advocating for women in ministry, biblical perspectives on gender equality, and practical steps for developing allies within the church. Listen to our conversation to discover how his research and personal experiences challenge traditional views and promote justice and mission expansion, through the full inclusion of women in ministry.
You can learn more about Dr. Rob Dixon on his website, drrobdixon.com, and find contact information there if you would like him to coach, train or speak with your organization.
You can also follow him on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, and Substack.
Please enjoy this episode of The Beautiful Kingdom Builders podcast on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, Substack, and more!
TRANSCRIPT:
Ruth Perry (00:15)
My guest today is Rob Dixon. He’s a writer, trainer, and consultant with over three decades of ministry experience, known for his work promoting equal partnership between men and women in ministry. And he is a distinguished scholar at Fuller Theological Seminary who teaches at Fresno Pacific University. And you’ve served on the Intervarsity Christian Fellowship staff for nearly 30 years. I feel like the way that I know you best is from your writing. I started reading your blog, Challenging Tertullian, many, many years ago. And
Rob Dixon (00:45)
Yeah, yeah.
Ruth Perry (00:47)
I also feel like I know you personally, but this is the first time that we’ve spoken. So I’m delighted to have you, Rob, and I’m delighted to talk about your work today. Thank you so much for being here.
Rob Dixon (00:57)
Thanks for having me. And boy, that’s a callback. The Challenging Tertullian blog of like, I don’t know, twenty fifteen, something like that, earlier maybe. So yeah, wow. Great to meet you in person, Ruth.
Ruth Perry (01:08)
I probably started following you right when you started doing that because I was devouring anything I could find about women in ministry at the time. I had been called by God to be in ministry, but I was in circumstances where I wasn’t getting that support. I didn’t have allies at the time. And so I was finding them online and I’m just really grateful that I found you and many other men who have been great allies and great sources of encouragement and information and scholarship. And one of the books that I have by you, I know you’ve written multiple books. Penny Preaches a great children’s book by Amy Dixon and Rob Dixon. It’s delightful. Highly recommend it. Get that for your kids, sons and daughters.
Rob Dixon (01:53)
Yeah, yeah, thank you. That’s a definitely a cherished you know, process writing that book with Amy, my wife. she’s a full-time picture book writer. And so if listeners like the storyline, that would be me. If they like anything else about the book, the characters, the dialogue, you know, that would be all Amy. So we had a great time working on that together. So yeah, it’s what’s been fun for me is to watch women who have been in ministry and have fought the battles, like I’m sure that you fought Ruth and have been through the the struggle to read that book and feel like you know, boy, I wish I’d had this when I was younger and coming up in ministry, but what a gift to the church. And so I hope so. I hope it pushes the conversation down to when we’re raising kids and we can talk about things that matter, like women in ministry. So yeah, thanks for thanks for the shout out for Penny.
Ruth Perry (02:44)
Well, I’m always really curious to know people’s faith journeys and their stories. Do you mind going back and telling us when you came to faith and how your faith has grown and have you always been an ally for women in ministry?
Rob Dixon (02:56)
Yeah, happy to happy to share about that. So yeah, I grew up in the church. I grew up in a church down in LA with my family. I mean, it was like what we did. It was it was the thing that marked or one of the things that marked the Dixon family was we were really involved in our church. In fact, when I joined the church, became a Christian, was baptized, joined the church, like my dad, my uncle, and my grandfather, I think were all on the session, the leadership team of the church and greeted me. So that was what we did as a family.
Interestingly for me, where I am now, hoping to be an ally to women in ministry, that did have its sort of sovereign foundations, I think would be a good word for it in my childhood experience. So as part of a church that endorsed the Ministry of Women, they weren’t perfect about it, but women were on the pastoral staff, women would preach from time to time. And then on top of that, in my family I’m not saying the men in my family were spiritual weaklings or something, but definitely the women in my family were the spiritual drivers in a lot of ways. So my grandma, both grandmas, super involved in in issues of faith. My grandma on my dad’s side was a prayer warrior. on my mom’s side, she had become a Christian later in life and her faith was vibrant. and then my mom as well. So I always identify with is it Timothy in 2 Timothy, who and when Paul reminds Timothy of his faith heritage that flowed through his mom and his grandma, Lois and Eunice, I think. And so I always think of that too for me. So yeah, I think I had a really good foundation to be where I am now based on some of those life experiences early on.
Ruth Perry (04:28)
So when was it that you realized this was an issue that you really cared about passionately enough that you would devote your life’s work to it?
Rob Dixon (04:36)
Yeah, great question. I I think coming out of that sovereign foundation phase, I carried a value for women in ministry and I would have said if you’d asked me, Should women be in ministry, absolutely, of course, why not? Let’s do it. but I think there’s a difference between and I see this in a lot of guys that I work with, there’s a difference between holding a value and then holding it as a conviction. and I think for men and for women too probably, we need to make that pivot from yeah, I endorse this, I have a value for it, but I’m I’m I’m actually now convicted of this because conviction, and this came out of my research for my doctoral work, conviction carries with it this value with an intent to act. There’s a the it’s a deeper thing.
And so for me that process of shifting from, yeah, sure, women should lead to, women should lead. That that shift happened when I first started in ministry, so I came on staff with Intervarsity in the what was this way back, Ruth, in the in the mid 90s, late 90s, I came on staff, and early on, I was ministering in a University’s college ministry, and I was ministering in a part of California that’s more conservative. The churches tend to be more conservative, and so this would flare up as an issue every year, sometimes more than once a year.
And I could tell a lot of stories, but at one point I had a pastor sit me down and tell me I was being a false teacher. And he just went deep. I mean he was on and on about being a false teacher and I was like, Why? And he goes, Well partly because you are allowing women to preach.
And at that point in my journey, I hadn’t done a ton of the theological study, the biblical work. but boy, after that experience of being called a false teacher, for about an hour, I mean it was really awkward. I just launched into this season of study and preparation. And I think that would be one moment of of several where I was really galvanized from, yeah, this is something we should care about too. we’re gonna care about this now.
And I actually emerged from that season kind of militant about things. Like if you weren’t an egalitarian, if you weren’t pro-women ministry, I was on the war path a little bit. And a mentor of mine finally at one point sat me down and said, Look, you need to learn how to hold your conviction with humility. And that’s been a good word for me then and it’s a good word for me now. Yeah.
Ruth Perry (06:48)
I was curious about if you like I knew that you had experienced the cost of your conviction because I experience it in a lot of microaggressions and in people outright telling me I don’t believe in women in ministry just as I meet people and go about my life and I’m a woman in ministry and people make sure that they let me know that they’re not okay with that. But
Rob Dixon (07:08)
So sad. Yep.
Ruth Perry (07:10)
I know that even for you being a man in ministry, having that view, I knew that there was a cost that you had.
Rob Dixon (07:17)
Yeah.
Ruth Perry (07:17)
Have you experienced that cost in other ways besides that one conversation?
Rob Dixon (07:22)
Sure, yeah. Yeah, so in my latest book, Allies in Ministry, I lay out a pathway for developing men into more effective allies to women in ministry and one of the steps is called The Pushback Step. And I I think in a lot of ways, as a guy I don’t think you can fully think of yourself as an ally until you’ve experienced some degree of pushback because of your convictions and because of your advocacy, your allyship. And so I think that comes with the territory a little bit. Sometimes when I’m talking with a guy who w would aspire to be an ally and I ask about pushback, no, I haven’t really done that yet. And then my question is, well, maybe you should be doing more to advocate or to be an ally to women in ministry.
I mean, there’s a lot of stories I could tell you. I mean, another one kind of in that same era where I had the false teacher conversation was I was working with a student who the year prior had been mentored by my wife Amy. This is what we did back then. We had up and coming leaders and we assigned them to Amy’s leadership and mentoring because she was so good at leading a Bible study and she could develop them and then after nine months they’d be prepared to lead their own small group.
And so at the end of that year prior, he had told Amy the thing that maybe all ministers want to hear. Like, I’ve thank you so much. I’ve grown so much under your leadership this year, more than ever in my life with God. I’m so grateful. It was like the thing that you put on the bulletin board, like for really tough ministry days, right?
And fast forward a few months, and he has been through this process with his church of discerning his theology on women and leadership, and he had emerged from that process in a more restrictive position, complementarian would be the term that gets used sometimes in theological circles. Anyway, he’s telling me about his journey, and he’s arrived in this place of conviction that women should not lead and develop men. And and at the end, I’m asking all these questions, and at the end of about an hour, Ruth, I ask him the question I’ve been waiting to ask him since the beginning, which is: hey, I know what you told Amy last year, that you grew more last year under her leadership than in any year prior in your life with God, and I want to know how you’re holding that in light of what you’re telling me now and he pauses for a second, he thinks about it, he looks at me and he says, That was God using Amy in spite of her disobedience.
And a lot of feelings went through me in that moment, right? I mean, you’re talking about my wife here, buddy, you know, and I think I had a lot of hostility in that initial response, but I think that story has, I mean, that was a story of sort of this became personal for me, right? Like this was again not some sort of theological conversation that’s happening in the abstract. Now your theology, I’m talking to the student, has forced you to conclude that my wife’s sacrificial, laying down her life kind of service was in some way sin. And so I think I mean it’s maybe not a story of personal pushback, but definitely a story of like I’m invested in this thing in a way that I wasn’t before. and that really was another galvanizing kind of moment for me as a young ally.
Ruth Perry (10:08)
Can you tell us how you would defend your view of women being in full equality in the church and the home from a biblical basis?
Rob Dixon (10:16)
Yeah. Yeah, sure. I mean I should clarify I’m not a theologian, right? So there are there are great books out there and I’m sure you’ve had people on your podcast over the years that have written great theological books. My my book, my first book, Together in Ministry, has a chapter on the theology of it all and it makes appearances at other points. But where I would start, I think, is actually to ask the question, Are you open to exploring the whole of the scriptures?
And what all of the scriptures have to say on the topic of women in ministry. I think so much of the conversation starts and sometimes ends with First Timothy two. That’s an important passage. it’s deserving of its place in the discussion. But if I can get someone, if I could convince someone to start in Genesis and work our way all the way through the old testament, look at Jesus and how Jesus interacts with women, and then get to the epistles and the praxis of the first church.
And the effects of the cross. I mean, if we can cover that whole gamut, I’m pretty confident that at least it will challenge someone’s perspective and it might even change it. Because I think someone sometimes we take a verse often out of context and we say, Well, this must be true. That verse, again, it’s important, but let’s look at it in the whole of the scriptures. Sometimes I use the metaphor, you know, scripture’s like a symphony, and every piece of scripture is playing on the same sheet music with the same beat and the same melody and all of that. I mean I have older kids now, but I remember when they were in orchestra and it didn’t sound so good, right? And the scripture shouldn’t sound bad. It should sound excellent. It should sound perfect. It should be integrated, right? And so I think let’s look at the whole piece of sheet music and not just one kind of measure, to use the metaphor.
Ruth Perry (11:55)
Especially when you’re talking about student orchestra which I was definitely in back in the day. We sounded better by our performance date, but yeah. You gotta work it out, right?
Rob Dixon (12:04)
Yes. Yes. You do. And I think just to say, I meet a lot of Christians that have a theology on women in ministry, but it’s something they picked up from their church, this the vibes in their church maybe, or a sermon a pastor preached once upon a time, or an article they read, or the family of origin.
But they haven’t done the actual work themselves in the text. And so one of the things I always try to encourage folks is to actually roll up your sleeves. Ideally with other people under the leadership of the spirit, get into the passages yourself and do your own work on this, right? Again, I think we breathe the air of whatever theological air we’re around. that’s not bad, but I think it’s better to do work in the scriptures on this yourself.
Ruth Perry (12:46)
And you really have to learn to recognize the power that the gatekeepers hold because I grew up in a complementarian tradition and I was always warned. I mean, it was specifically a warning to not read outside of your tradition and not listen to people outside of your tradition. And so I do think that that piece of learning the humility of listening to people who think differently than you is really impactful and powerful, but scary.
Rob Dixon (13:12)
Yeah. Yeah, I mean there’s Yeah, yeah. There’s your theology and then there’s how you hold your theology, which I think it’s almost as important, if not more important sometimes, is actually how you hold your theology, right? And I think I always want to be the kind of person, Lord may it be so, that is able to dialogue with people who think differently than I do, and learn. I mean, I think the point at which you think you’re fully arrived theologically is the point where you need to be careful.
Because there’s a group of guys in the New Testament that thought they were fully arrived and when Jesus came on the scene, and we talked about the Pharisees, right? When Jesus came on the scene, it was the wineskins passage. They burst. They couldn’t handle the new thing because they thought they had it all figured out. So just a a word to listeners, be careful, right, about that.
Ruth Perry (13:56)
Yeah, absolutely. I’m taking that word to heart too. It’s a constant reminder where we have to be humble. And there’s all those one another commands in the New Testament where we’re supposed to consider others before ourselves. And how often do we just hold our own views so tightly that we’re not able to do that?
Rob Dixon (14:12)
Yeah, that’s right. Yep. Amen.
Ruth Perry (14:14)
I really loved your language about allyship because that’s something that I’ve learned over the process of my own faith journey is to listen better to other people and listen about their experiences and then interrogate my views especially how my Christian tradition has played a part in a lot of harmful oppression of different groups of people.
And that word ally that you use in your book, it’s really beautiful, but it’s a trigger word, people get triggered by it like they do critical race theory or all these other hot topics. Can you describe why you chose the word ally for your framing of your book?
Rob Dixon (14:51)
Yeah. Yeah, it’s I mean language is interesting, isn’t it? Because over time it accrues baggage, I guess you’d say, or connotations, maybe. So you gotta it’s always important, I think, to define terms. I mean, I think even of the conversation in the women in ministry, like egalitarian, complementary I mean y maybe the place to start even before you get into the scriptures is like, Well, what are we talking about here? Like what what’s your definition of all of these things? So same thing with ally. I chose the word and first of all, I’d say I read there’s a lot of books written about allyship, mostly in the secular space. So I think a book about male allyship in the Christian arena is a gap. Which I was trying to fill a gap in the literary, you know, picture.
And I read a lot of books in the secular space and it’s really helpful to sort of point out different pieces of what it means to be an ally. What so empathy or the idea that allies function interpersonally but also systemically. Or the idea that an ally an ally involves wrestling with their privilege, or the idea that allies listen well to the marginalized community so that they’re not sort of acting in a way that’s actually contrary to what the marginalized community needs. There’s all these sort of themes about allyship that come out in the literature, and you can s you can read all about that in my book. The other thing I like about the term ally is I view it as an umbrella term. There’s not one way to be an ally.
And underneath the umbrella, there’s, I mean, her name’s Karen Catlin. She wrote a book called Better Allies, and she lists off seven different tools, I guess, or expressions of allyship. And I use them in my book. There’s a whole chapter on each of those seven tools, which I think are pretty crucial. And and they run the gamut from quieter expressions of allyship to louder expressions of allyship, right? I mean we think maybe of some of the louder ones like being an upstander, so intervening when there’s injustice, or advocacy, which is a know, I think oftentimes people see it as a synonym to ally, but it’s not, it’s it’s a form of allyship.
And then the quieter expressions would be more like a scholar. I mean, Catlin talks about you’re expressing allyship when you’re learning, or another one would be confidant. So when I’m working with a woman quietly, no one knows about it, but I’m supporting her, I’m giving her resources, I’m encouraging her, that’s being an ally, right? So I love that range because I think some of us as guys are wired to make a splash, maybe the louder end of the spectrum, but others of us we maybe need to start out more on the quieter end of the spectrum and I like the flexibility within that larger term of being an ally.
Ruth Perry (17:19)
Yeah, I think that is really beautiful. I appreciated that in your book because it’s true. No matter who you are, you’ve been given a different set of gifts and personality and experiences and it doesn’t help to compare yourself to others and play that game of am I doing enough? Like if you’re doing something, God sees that and it’s valuable. Yeah. Can you explain in your book you talked about three biblical examples of allies: Jesus, Paul and Boaz, could you talk us through those examples?
Rob Dixon (17:49)
Yeah. Sure, sure can. Yeah. I mean well it’s funny, the Sunday school answer, right? The classic when I was growing up in Sunday school, right, the answer if you answer Jesus, you were right almost all the time, right? With whatever question. I think that’s true with an ally. And if you look at Jesus, he’s I like a quote from Walter Wink, who’s a theologian. He says that in every encounter recorded with with women in the gospels, Jesus is doing something culturally wrong. I’m paraphrasing the quote, but he’s doing s he’s transgressing the culture in some way.
And I think that’s a really cool way to think about Jesus. He is a game changer for women, and he’s doing things. So you could look at all kinds of passages in the book. I talk about like the the hemorrhaging woman from Mark 5. I prefer to think of her as the faith-filled woman, right? She’s it’s that amazing story, right? He’s advocating for her, he’s healing her. you could talk about, you know, the John 4, the woman at the well, and Jesus empowers her for service. So, Jesus is a great example, but I also like to point out Paul and Peter in the New Testament, I think follow Jesus’ example. And Paul gets a lot of what’s the right way to put this?
Well if you Google Paul and Misogyny, there’s a lot of answers that come up, right? Based largely on Timothy two, but if you look more deeply at Paul’s practice, he is faithful to empower women, he’s faithful to commission women, he’s got women that he counts as dear friends and coworkers and in a lot of ways women are a natural part of the narrative for Paul as co-workers. And then Peter’s kind of the same way. Peter talks there’s a couple of passages where Peter really does step into a role as his role as an ally. I mean, I think of how he engages with in the after the crucifixion, I think of the speech he gives in is it Acts two? The Pentecost speech where he talks about women prophesying. So there’s a way in which Peter also fulfills that allyship.
But the original ally in the scriptures is Boaz, like you said, and Boaz, I mean you’re talking about a culture that is I mean what’s the right adjective for this? It’s flagrantly patriarchal. I mean there’s a way in which all power, all cultural power was held by men, and in that context, Boaz does an amazing job as an ally to Ruth and Naomi actually. So for one thing, two levels of that, for one thing, he follows the biblical command to allow widows to glean from his field, and he creates space for Ruth to do that. But he goes a step further and says to his men, be careful with her, like treat her well. Like he goes a step beyond what’s actually written in the Old Testament law.
And then of course the second way he expresses allyship is as the kinsman redeemer to Ruth and Naomi and ultimately he has his place in the genealogy of Jesus because of that, right? So yeah, I think of Boaz is kind of the original the original ally in the scriptures.
Ruth Perry (20:28)
It’s beautiful. Can you talk us through how you did your research for your book and then what the framework is of your book, Allies in Ministry?
Rob Dixon (20:37)
Yeah. So I’m a learner. I love learning new things. And so doing research is kind of my like I mean I I’m trained and d for my doctoral program how to do research, but that’s my natural inclination anyway. So when I have curiosity about something, I’m gathering people that I think have some degree of expertise in that and learning, asking questions. and so I did that with with Allyship. I don’t know how many men, I can’t remember off the top of my head how many men I actually sat with, but a number of one-on-one interviews and then I did focus groups, which are more enjoyable actually as a researcher, because you’re in a room full of people and you’re dialoguing together and people are bouncing off of each other with ideas and it’s just a joy to to do that.
So yeah I learned from a bunch of people and then I sifted all that data, which is the hard work of research I think, is to sit with everything you’ve received and discern what’s you know looking for themes and trends and things like that. And so what emerged from that was this seven-step pathway. The pathway is the language I use for it to get a guy from the starting position through what I call a disruptive encounter, something that shakes their kind of worldview, challenges their paradigms for how the world works, specifically around male privilege. So there’s an encounter that happens a disruptive encounter.
Then the third step is there’s a response to that disruption. So Whoa, what just happened? Let me synthesize that, let me process that. It’s one of the places on the pathway where men can opt out if they’re if they’re unwilling or unable to process that well. The fourth step would be trying stuff out. So initial attempts at allyship. That’s where men use those seven different tools I referenced earlier. Step five is pushback. Because of your allyship you receive pushback. Step six would be continued investment. So the allies’ work is never done. There’s ways to keep growing.
I think for example, I think men may start being familiar with one of the seven tools, but I think in step six you want to start becoming fluent in more of them. And ultimately in step seven, habitual allyship, it’s where you’re a you never want to say you’re a finished product, Ruth. Like I feel like people are always going to be growing. I’m always going to be learning and growing. But step seven would be this sort of place where you’re fluent in all s all seven of the skills. You’ve thought through things, you’re content. I think allies and this is hard for guys sometimes. I think we need to be content not being at the center of things. You know?
I mean Catlin makes this great comparison in her book. She talks about the contrast between being an ally and then being a knight in shining armor that swoops in to save the day and all the glory goes to the ally, right? Like like in step seven, you’re comfortable not being in that place. You’d actually prefer to not be in that place. And I think that’s a pivot for guys in a lot of ways. so anyway, those are my seven seven steps. And I I think the the beauty of the pathway is it my hope anyway is that it gives the church, Big C church, a roadmap. So if you want to be intentional about developing met developing men into more effective allies to women, there’s your here. There’s your roadmap to work with, right? to g to get men there and so I hope people use it that way.
Ruth Perry (23:38)
Yeah, I thought it was spectacular and brilliant the way you did that. It reminded me of like the Critical Journey book about spiritual maturity and that process of going from stages in your faith. And I think that it’s really important and powerful way to look at our maturity process to recognize where we are, first of all.
Rob Dixon (23:58)
Yeah, yeah.
Ruth Perry (24:00)
And where we need to go. I remember when I was in seminary, I’d read the book, Stages of Faith by James Fowler. And at the time I had never doubted anything about my faith. And so the whole book was kind of a puzzle to me. Like, I don’t understand this process at all. But then when I did have a period of time where I had gone through a lot of loss and grief and conflict and my faith was really shaken. Just having that framework from having read that book, I was like, my gosh, this is what’s happening to me. And so I would highly recommend people read your book even if
Rob Dixon (24:34)
Thank you.
Ruth Perry (24:34)
they haven’t really considered where they are on the path. I mean, it’s gonna illuminate things for them in ways that are really helpful. What is the problem with excluding women from ministry, do you think, Rob?
Rob Dixon (24:48)
What is the problem? I mean, where do you want me to start? I mean well, I think first of all, it probably needs to be said it’s contrary to scripture. I mean, if you look in Genesis 1, right, when God has the possibility of setting it all up free of sin, there’s no sin in the world, it’s God’s creation intent.
And you know, there’s these twin affirmations in Genesis one, right, where women and men share the image of God. It’s not like Adam has more of the image of God. You know. And then the second thing is the command to rule over the world and by extension God’s mission is given to women and men together. There’s no hierarchy, there’s no like, you know, Adam, why don’t you lead this process and Eve, give them the support he needs. It’s not like that. It’s this you together go and rule.
And I I think the rest of the scripture sits atop that foundation in Genesis one and confirms it repeatedly. Even when sin comes into the world, God’s intent still remains that women and men would share leadership. So I think the first problem with excluding women is it’s contrary to the scripture and to God’s heart. I mean, I could go on. A another problem for me anyway, as I think about things, I think a lot about mission. I want God’s mission to expand.
And the reality is the church has spent 2,000 plus years now with half the team on the bench, you know, relegated to the bench. And look, we’ve gotten so far with male leadership. Let’s try something different. And my personal conviction is that as women are empowered, released into service, able to use their callings and use their gifts, God’s mission will expand exponentially. And I’m invested in that project. I want that to happen, right?
Maybe a third thing, I’ll stop after this one, although I could keep going probably, but I think there’s a justice element here to me. Right? Women have been marginalized or worse, in the hands of the church for two thousand years. It’s unjust what has happened to women. Every time a woman is prohibited from using her gift, expressing her calling, that’s unjust. it just is. And so I think we have a God who is in the business of making unjust things just again.
And so I would love to see the church I mean, frankly, repent of how we’ve treated women for two thousand years and move in a different direction, which is what repentance entails, right? And so there’s a justice issue too. I again I could go on, but those would be three things. The scriptures, there’s the missional aspect of it, and then there’s the justice piece. Yeah. Thanks for coming to my TedTalk.
Ruth Perry (27:07)
Amen. I agree. Yeah. Was there anything that surprised you while you’re researching and writing your book?
Rob Dixon (27:18)
that’s a great question. I love that question. Yeah, I think what surprised me was the disruptive encounter. I mentioned that earlier. So that second step in the pathway. There’s your starting position and then there’s something that shakes the worldview or challenges the assumptions or paradigms. And I don’t know what I was expecting, but people told me stories that were pretty like intense. I mean back to where I started, I mean my own disruptive encounter was being called a false teacher for an hour. That’s one of many. The other one was having someone judge my wife’s sacrificial good leadership to be sinful.
I mean, those are those are moments that really shake men up in the in the context of male allyship. And I think that was surprising to me to hear some of those stories. Like you can reason with someone and try to convince them. I think that works for some men, but some men like me maybe need that experiential, emotional, earth shattering kind of experience, right? And I think that was surprising to hear that. The good news is I think sometimes disruptive encounters just happen, but I actually think in the church we can engineer them. So we can create disruptive encounters with a lot of pastoral work on the back end, right, to walk men through that disruptive encounter. And I think we should be thinking about that more proactively as a church.
Ruth Perry (28:32)
Something that I’ve learned because I’ve come a long way through my own pathway and I got really passionate like you describe in your book once you learned that this is an injustice, I got really passionate and I got really loud in my advocacy for women in ministry as a woman and I kind of believed I could make change because I changed. So I was really excited about helping other people see the light. Change their evil ways and turn back to God and yeah.
Rob Dixon (28:56)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Ruth Perry (29:00)
But something that I’ve learned is that, you know, as a woman who’s had these experiences of not having my voice valued or listened to and realizing too that because I had grown up in a complementarian culture that I didn’t know my own voice either and I had to find my voice. And just the process of that and never being centered and then realizing, we’re centering men and having these realizations. And for a little while I was at a church where I was really passionate about this, really loud about this, and they changed the pastor’s wife’s title from director of children’s ministries to pastor of children’s ministries. And I was so excited and so thrilled, like I’m making a big change.
But as I’ve moved into other situations, I’ve come to recognize that the people who are most impacted by a problem are the best ones to articulate and explain what’s happening. But they have the least power to make any change. And you have to have proximity to the people who have the power to make change.
Rob Dixon (30:02)
Right.
Ruth Perry (30:03)
And so I think that’s why your book is so important. Where more men need to realize that this is a dynamic and that this is impacting women negatively and it’s impacting all of us negatively, that we all do better when we’re using our gifts for the kingdom and for the common good. and so I just I’m really grateful to you for writing the book and what do you hope will come of the book?
Rob Dixon (30:27)
Yeah. appreciate you saying that. And amen to all of that too. I mean I tell a story in the book, but there’s a guy that I know who I was interviewing and he started to think he knew best. And there was this moment where he advocated for a woman and basically usurped her agency. And there was this sort of like, wait a second, I messed that up. I got too far out ahead, I thought I knew what was best.
So I appreciate that emphasis on learning from and being with sitting with the marginalized community. I think that’s a good word there. I I mean in terms of what I hope, again, I wanna see God’s mission move forward. I wanna see more people love Jesus, follow Jesus. I wanna see I mean that is my big picture hope. And I think releasing women to lead and serve is a step toward that larger end and a crucial step for the church in this season. And so, my hope would be that this book, that the other book, that Penny preaches, that all those books just help that, Challenging Tertullian even, that that that pushes us towards that larger end, right? To to release women, to empower women to lead so that more people will know Jesus, because I really believe that’s gonna happen.
So, yeah, I mean that’s my hope, is let’s move the conversation down the field. Let’s move the church in a helpful way. I’m very aware as I say all of this, right, that the patriarchy is strong. It’s it’s remains strong. I’m starting to think more and more of patriarchy less as a cultural condition and more as like a power principality to use some sort of spiritual warfare kinds of language and so I think we should expect pushback. We should expect the patriarchy to lash back. I mean as we’re talking the Southern Baptists are doing their thing and the patriarchy feels alive and well from the things I read on social media about that. So I think we should expect that and all the more reason to be praying. And all the more reason to be pushing as hard as we can to bring change. So I hope Allies and Ministry helps us with that process process.
Ruth Perry (32:22)
This is a great book to do with a small group and with other people. One like if you just do it with one other person, there’s questions for reflection. where else can people find your work, Rob? And how can they is this something that you come and you teach on if people wanted to engage you that way?
Rob Dixon (32:39)
Yeah, yeah. I love to I always use three words for it to coach. So like an individual leader that wants to be better about empowering women, I can help with that. Consult would be in a second one. So, you know, what’s going on in your organization? Let me help you try to pick places where you could change, be better around this. And then train would be the third one. So always happy to do that on Zoom or in person. People can go to my website.
Let me issue a disclaimer, Ruth. This website is perpetually in process. If you’re expecting like slick graphics you’re in the wrong place. So Rob is not a web designer, but I do dabble and so drrobdixon.com, D R R O B D I X O N dot com.
That’s where you can find me, there’s contact information there as well if you wanna reach out to me to involve me in something that you’re doing. I I always say this, wherever people are talking about the dynamics of women and men working together or allies or any of these things, I wanna be in that conversation. So if there’s a way for listeners to involve me in that, I’m happy to think about that. Yeah.
Ruth Perry (33:37)
I think something that a lot of people assume from me just because I advocate for women in ministry and for women’s equality that I don’t like men. But I have to say I love men, I love my husband, my sons, I love all the allies in ministry that I’ve encountered, I love your work and I’m just so grateful for you and for the many male friendships that I have. And I love men that disagree with me about this too. I want us all, I want the best for all of us. And so I’m just really grateful that you would come on the Beautiful Kingdom Builders today to share about your work. And I’m gonna link to your website in the show notes and to your books. And I hope people check those out. And I’m gonna give you the last word, Rob. Thank you for being here today.
Rob Dixon (34:25)
Yeah, well thanks for having me. You know, listeners obviously know the value of your work, Ruth, and what you do with the Beautiful Kingdom Builders podcast and the other stuff you do on social media. And I just would say blessings to you and may your tribe increase, right? We need more voices advocating for the full inclusion of women in the church. So thanks for all you do.
Ruth Perry (34:45)
Thank you so much. God bless.
Rob Dixon (34:47)
Yeah, you too.
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