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003 I Jenna Dunn of Ezer Bible

Posted on December 24, 2025 by | Leave a comment

In this episode, Jenna Dunn, writer and theologian at Ezer Bible, describes her personal journey out of complementarian theology and the toll that patriarchal bible interpretation and church culture took on her faith and marriage. You can follow Jenna’s ministry on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, and more! I hope to have more conversations with Jenna in the future about the Bible and interpreting it through an egalitarian lens. Here is the video of our interview, and you can listen to it on your favorite podcasting platforms.

TRANSCRIPT:

Ruth Perry (00:15)
My guest today is Jenna Dunn, who has a ministry called Ezer Bible. You can find her website at ezerbible.com, E-Z-E-R-B-I-B-L-E.com. And if you scroll down to the bottom of the homepage, there are links to all of her social media.

I wanted to explain briefly that word, ezer. In Genesis 2:18, God says, he made an ezer, a helper, for the man. In English, the word helper can mean someone of a subordinate status. But if you look at the other places where ezer occurs in the Bible, it mostly refers to God, who is our help. So certainly not a subordinate help, but rather a strong help.

Jenna and I talk about the toll that Complementarian Theology took on her faith and her marriage. And we talk about her love for the Bible, even though reading it through a patriarchal lens almost cost her her faith. I hope you enjoy this conversation with Jenna Dunn and follow her Ezer Bible ministry.

Ruth Perry (01:14)
Well, tell me more about your background. So you live in Oregon? Is that where you’re from?

Jenna Dunn (01:18)
Yeah, yeah, I’ve lived in Oregon my whole life. I was not really raised in the church. I used to go to the church a little bit. Like as a teenager, I went to a Baptist church, but, when I got married, my husband’s family was very involved in Calvary Chapel. And so for a long time we were Calvary Chapel people and he became a pastor. He went to the Bible college.

Calvary Chapel has like a Bible college in Arizona. And you know, he read systematic theology, the Wayne Grudem stuff, you know, in Bible college. And then we started a church. And I mean, if you’re familiar with Calvary Chapel, you probably kind of know.

Ruth Perry (01:50)
Yeah. So I’m thinking it’s charismatic. I don’t really know much about Calvary

Jenna Dunn (02:02)
It’s like a charismatic Baptist church. It’s not reformed, but it’s complementarian. And it’s a little political, at least ours was.

Ruth Perry (02:12)
Is Calvary Chapel, is that the one that the Jesus Movement sprang out of? Okay.

Jenna Dunn (02:19)
Yeah. So, I mean, there’s some really neat things about that, the origin of that movement. Like I do like that origin story, but I think what Calvary Chapel has become is much more similar to like the Southern Baptist Convention or like the Reformed Complementarian Movement.

Ruth Perry (02:22)
Yeah.

Jenna Dunn (02:41)
Most the people in Calvary Chapel are reading a new King James Version Bible, not an ESV Bible. But they very much listen to teachers of the Complementarian Reformed Movement. And I remember, that was always like a point of contention is there would be certain Bible teachers or leaders who were Reformed and it’s like, well, we’re not Reformed. So, you know, trying to figure out like where the theology lined up, but…

but definitely that commonality of holding to, you know, complementarian theology or the idea of gender roles and women not being in leadership. And I think, once you accepted that viewpoint, it opens you up for some of the more extreme Christian patriarchy ideas. So in the church context, I was in, it wasn’t a part of our church’s belief system, but I was still exposed to the Pearls. So like I have Created to be His Help Meet. That was a book that was given out to all the women, not from the church leadership, but just from somebody going to the church. you meet a nice homeschool family and like they give out these materials. I was also exposed to
a lot of Mark Driscoll type teaching. And the pastor that ended up coming in and kind of being the lead pastor was an Acts 29? is it? Yeah, the pastor was trained through that. And he quoted Mark Driscoll a lot. So there was that influence. I remember my ex-husband

Ruth Perry (04:00)
It’s 29. Yeah, Mark Driscoll was one of the founders of that. Yeah.

Jenna Dunn (04:15)
like going to a men’s leadership retreat at Mark Driscoll’s church and it, you know, like Voddie Baucham. We were very adjacent to some of these more extreme things. And, and I was always, I’ve always been more like inclined towards theology. I read it, you know, like I go and look up these people and like, I read it and I’m like, whoa, these ideas are, you know.

Ruth Perry (04:24)
Yeah.

Jenna Dunn (04:35)
I just, it was, it’s a weird position to be in because I, I do like actually listen. Like if I go to church, I listened to what the person says and, and I read my Bible and in some ways I had more theology training or a Bible training than the men in leadership around me in Calvary Chapel. Like usually the pastors don’t actually have very much seminary training. They’re just charismatic men who I don’t know, there may be mentored a little bit by older pastors.

Ruth Perry (05:00)
They are called and God equipped them. That’s all they needed.

Jenna Dunn (05:05)
Yeah, and you’re not really in a position as a ministry wife to change anything, so. I did that for over a decade and I was very unhappy for like the last five years and it did slowly tear apart my marriage. There’s a lot of ideas within Complementarian Theology that are really unhealthy for couples and for families. And then I think if you add to that, there’s ideas in our culture, right? So like even though

My ex-husband didn’t really embrace, like he was just not a theology person. He just was like, I just love people and he didn’t think about it. But he also didn’t understand that like the things that we were a part of were problematic. Like he just didn’t see it. And, you know, it caused a lot of conflict. Like it was just very hard on our relationship to navigate that and not have the same understanding.

But I think a lot of good has come from it because it forced me to learn the Bible really well. I always had a message prepared. I always had like in my, the Bible I used at the time, I had seven passages bookmarked and I’ve made a Bible study guide about that, but there’s seven verses starting with Romans 16 that I would break down, This is what the Bible actually says about women in ministry and about men and women. And I was always kind of ready.

And I think, I had convinced my ex-husband and he was kind of just, you know, we kind of had this understanding, he would open the door for me, given the chance. Like if there was a chance I could convince other people in leadership that this is what the Bible really taught. Then, you know, he wanted to see me be able to do that. But he also encouraged me to just pray and And, you know, things change slowly. And so we stayed in this really unhealthy church structure for probably way too long and just kind of hoped that like, people would change, you know, but I, I don’t really recommend people stay in those types of environment. It’s, it’s tempting too, cause you’re like, well, these people all believe the Bible and they love Jesus. So they’ll figure it out, you know, but it, just, it’s a hard,

Ruth Perry (07:08)
Yeah.

Jenna Dunn (07:11)
It’s a hard mindset to bring people out of. But the good of it in my life is just what I’ve learned over the years. I was really influenced by so many amazing theologians and Bible teachers. When I started Ezer Bible, I was really influenced by Is it Carolyn Kustis James? I read Half the Church and it was the best thing I ever read. mean, it was like water in the desert for me. just, she was so brilliant. And I was really influenced by Rachel Held Evans. This was like a lot of women over the years that I just found people online to learn from and to learn what the Bible actually says was better to me than to just leave a sort of toxic mindset and just not believe anymore, which, you know, was the initial path, but when God brought me back to Him and I began healing, was mostly through learning what Scripture actually says. That’s far better than just saying, I don’t want anything to do with that over there. Sometimes I tell people I left Christianity. I walked away from God over one Bible verse. There was this one thing I could not accept and it made me so angry.

First Corinthians 14 with the whole women are to be silent where Paul’s quoting the oral law or quoting the law, “As the law says “. In my Bible at the time, which I think was, the new King James, it has a footnote to Genesis three 16 as if that’s the law that it’s quoting from. That was what I was being taught about that, that Paul is saying that women are to be silent in church. And I just couldn’t, dismiss that and be like, that’s just cultural. And, you know, I just don’t like Paul. I just couldn’t accept that the Bible said that. So it was kind of a final straw moment for me where I was like, I know I’m technically a pastor’s wife, but I just, was sort of a closet atheist for a while. I I walked away from God and I remember at that time in my life being in the position I was, was actually easier. Like if I kind of thought atheism was true, I still cared about people. I remember a few times people would ask me to pray for them and I was like, well, yeah, that’s fine. It helps them. I still wanted to help people, but I didn’t really believe that.

the way the Bible had been presented to me and that understanding of God could possibly be true and I didn’t want to be a part of it and I just thought that’s ridiculous that God would silence women and that.

Ruth Perry (09:30)
What was the emotional journey of that, of losing your faith? What was that like?

Jenna Dunn (09:37)
Yeah, think that there was really so much behind that. Like I had gone through years and years of hurt and being sidelined in the church and I had a very, very traumatic birth experience with my fourth son. And I had been exposed to all kinds of toxic ideas. I had a lot of things that happened.

But was like, that was the final straw. And I think that there was really a lot of wounds and things underneath that. But I do remember just throwing the Bible across the room and just, I just stopped reading my Bible for a while. And I was very mad at God about that one verse. But you know, years later, I did eventually come back to God through that verse. What God showed me about that verse was so healing for me. So I’m…

I’m glad to have what I think is the proper interpretation of that section of scripture and a better understanding of Paul.

Ruth Perry (10:23)
Yeah. Did God reveal it to you in some way that you weren’t anticipating? How did that come about?

Jenna Dunn (10:37)
Um, yeah, I just remember I had read like different interpretations of it. I’m always researching things, who knows? But at one point I remember reading these quotes about what some of the beliefs were about women. You know, like there’s a quote outside of the Bible, but about women not knowing anything but the use of their distaff and about it would be better for the words of scripture to be burned than to be entrusted to a woman. There’s some different quotes that float around in the teachings of the rabbis.

And I remember seeing a quote that was… It literally said, the voice of a woman is filthy nakedness. And when I did a word study on 1 Corinthians 14:36, it says, the voice of a woman is shameful. And I looked up the word shameful and it was the same word as like filthy. And I was like, wow, that’s really similar.

you know, to say that a woman’s voice is filthy, it really sounds like Paul’s quoting this Jewish oral statement or some kind of slogan or, you know, he’s quoting this idea and then rebuking it. So like, that’s the thing that was so healing for me is like, Paul’s not agreeing with that. He’s rebuking that idea. And then you see that combined with how affirming he is.

Ruth Perry (11:53)
Yeah.

Jenna Dunn (11:59)
And how he’s partnering with women in his work. It made the whole Bible more consistent. Like now I see a more cohesive picture of Paul where he’s affirming female leaders and calling them coworkers and co-laborers. And I’m like, okay, that’s a Paul that I can understand. And then also the strength of his rebuke, like to actually, you know, be like, you men, you think that the Bible came from you. You think the word of God came from you, but it came to us all, you know, it’s actually a really strong rebuke. And so I find that really comforting, like Paul’s on my side.

But yeah, It was a process. I was mad at God for a long time. I was really in a bad place for several years. I kind of came back to God and I was still a pastor’s wife and I was still in an unhealthy situation. I tried to make the most of it, but you know, it was really hard on my marriage. It was really hard to raise my kids in that environment.

I have some really sad stories about women who I was very close to that, I saw them go a different direction. I saw them embrace a more strict legalistic form of Christianity. You know, there’s women I know who I watched their marriages just turn very ugly, People that I even knew before we were saved, before we got involved in ministry, there’s people I was friends with. And so to see the fruit of complementarian theology play out in people’s lives and marriages and how they parent their kids, I have a pretty strong aversion to some of those ideas. And I also just think it’s such an incredibly twisted way to read the Bible. I think it imposes this framework on to Scripture that just makes it really difficult for people to understand the Bible.

Ruth Perry (13:48)
Yeah, that’s one of the hardest things for me. I appreciate so much of my upbringing. I grew up Baptist and there’s so much that I appreciate and I definitely always met God in the churches I’ve been involved in and I appreciate the sincerity of the faith I’ve seen, but I have also seen so much dysfunction and so much spiritual abuse and harm.

And it’s hard, the experience of starting to awaken to the dysfunction, the toxicity of the theology. Talk to me about that experience of your relationships in Calvary Chapel. How were they impacted by your journey away from that culture and that theology?

Jenna Dunn (14:28)
I think you could probably imagine like in a small town, if there’s a couple that’s the pastor and the pastor’s wife and they go through a divorce, It was just it was a nightmare. mean, I was just kind of trying to do things in the least dramatic way possible. Like, as quiet as possible. didn’t want it to harm my children. Like, I just didn’t want there to be rumors, that my kids would hear. My kids were, you know, all their friends were in the church. And, you know, like the church was our family. And, you know, those people that we had birthday parties and baby showers and people that we had known for years and years.

I actually had to work together with my ex-husband to be like how can we make this the least traumatic possible? And I really thought that they would have him stay in ministry because he was more like the administrative pastor. He did all of the the building projects and maintenance and sound equipment set up and like that type of stuff. He wasn’t like the guy in front. He wasn’t like the teaching pastor. But it was a pretty unhealthy leadership dynamic. The church I go to now is a Four Square Church, and a few Sundays ago they had a new pastor and pastor’s wife that they were installing is what they call it in four square but so they were this couple was like gonna start being in ministry and it was, I literally still cry about it. I cried during that service. I came home and cried because it was so healthy. Like everybody in the church promised to pray for the people that are leaders, pastors, and their families. They said, we’re going to pray for you. We’re going to support you. And like, make sure you put your marriage first. Make sure you take care of your kids first. And it was so beautiful to see like the community sort of rally behind these people that were willing to dedicate their lives to serving.

Just the recognition of the toll that that takes on your family. But we care about you first, not just what we can get from you. We’re not gonna put you on a pedestal. You’re just like us, but you’re willing to do this. And it was so beautiful. And that was not my experience at all being in ministry It was very toxic. And we were so afraid to let people know that we were struggling in our marriage or in our family. We didn’t, have support and, yeah, it’s like, it’s just completely different. I’d say there was like a lot of bullying. So like I remember one man that was a leader for a while, they ended up moving away, but it was like his wife was too domineering, right? So was like he was kind of made fun of, like, your wife wears the pants. None of these women were trying to control anything, but it was just like the men had to be a certain, have a certain sort of traditional masculine vibe about them. And so there was some bullying that happened if they weren’t and the main teaching pastor was very much like the guy in charge and everybody else is a yes man. And, you know, we were very afraid of not being able to pay our rent and not be able to pay our bills if we stepped out of line. So yeah, that’s basically what happened is we were forced into a position of of just having to be like, yes, okay, but this is not good. And if you’re the weak link, if you show weakness or they know that you’re struggling in your marriage, they’re gonna turn against you. It’s like you’re the sick chicken in the flock and they’re gonna pick you to death. So it’s like, you can’t show that weakness when you’re in a team like that. I very much identify when I hear people talk about what happened at Mars Hill. Like there’s people that were involved in leadership there and they talk about what that felt like. it just, was so, it was similar to the dynamic of what we were involved with.

Ruth Perry (18:08)
Yeah. My family, my dad was a senior pastor and my brother was his associate pastor and then my family attended the church and they had this big conflict erupt. And it was like, the church just kicked us while we were down. It was just like that. It was like, oh my God, this is so much worse than it had to be. And I’m just so frustrated that Christians aren’t the most loving, caring people. It makes me so mad.

Jenna Dunn (18:42)
Yeah, yeah, it’s weird to see those dynamics and you know, I kind of imagine that in the healthier churches, know, part of what besides there’s sort of being a system of checks and balances so that there’s not just like one main guy that’s the whole everything’s around that guy, you know, but I think in some of the healthier churches, it’s like you do see like the husband and wife ministry teams and you see women in positions of leadership so that they can provide like perspective of like what things are like for women in the church.

I remember saying that at one time I was like, well, if I was struggling, where would I get help? Like all of the leadership are all men and I don’t want to talk to them about that. They’re like, be like, oh, so and so’s wife. And I’m like, yeah, but she’s not in a position to change anything. The wives have to support their husbands. Like I knew, how many times I was in a leadership meeting and I knew that they did not want me to open my Bible and to say something that contradicted what they were saying. Like I know to stay in my place and not make my husband look bad. They don’t want me to lead or to be interested in theology or to have the right answer or to help them. They actually just want me to stay quiet and play my part.

And it was always hard for me because I knew what God wanted me to do. I feel like God called me to be a teacher. Like I actually would find myself in situations where we’re having a two hour long meeting about this topic and I know the answer and I could very easily show you in scripture and it would just end this meeting and we would just all be on the same page. But it was like, that was not what they wanted from me. And I didn’t want to risk my, you know, it’s sad. I wish I…hindsight I wish I would have been more willing to risk my reputation or my standing or whatever like even if it caused a huge problem I mean my life fell apart anyways like staying quiet didn’t serve me either you know so I wish I would have had more courage

Ruth Perry (20:34)
Well, it takes so long to undo all of the toxic teaching that we’ve absorbed and learned. I’ve been doing the Beautiful Kingdom Builders page for a long time. And just recently I’m finding my own voice in personal relationships with other people. Or pursue my own goals apart from my husband and stop waiting for my husband to be the ministry person that I support. It really takes a lot of time, even as your eyes are opening decades before, it still takes time to undo that cultural conditioning that we received.

Jenna Dunn (20:55)
Yes. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I think I bought the domain name Ezer Bible, like, 2012. I mean, so that’s how long ago I’ve been, not doing this. And it’s because of the mindset hurdles that I’m up against. So, I started my business and all of the same issues that I was having just in my relationship with God were manifest in my business. So I’m like, why am I struggling so much as a small business owner? I’m chronically undercharging, devaluing my time, devaluing myself. I just came across so much personal problems, because of my background. I just really can’t, can’t, you know, let God fully heal me from like some of these really toxic mindsets.

And I think too, when I go back and read some of the stuff I was writing during that time for probably five years, most of the things I wrote, if I read it now, it’s not the voice I want to put out there. That’s not how I want to sound. Cause what it is, is like, I’m, I’m talking or writing from a place of feeling really inferior, trying to prove myself, right? Like trying to say I actually know something about the Bible. I know something about theology and this is why you should listen to me. And, you know, God isn’t asking me to do that, but I just feel like I know the person I was when I was a Calvary Chapel ministry wife, I felt…so disempowered and so not worthy and like my voice didn’t matter and nobody would want to learn from me or hear from me. They just wanted this silent role, a supportive role. And I just thought who am I to think I know something about the Bible or who am I to challenge complementarian theology? I felt just really inadequate and it’s been so hard to overcome that.

Like there has been growth in that area, but I think that’s kind of why I don’t put myself out there. I put my voice out there. I do more with my marketing. And I think that that’s kind of helped me warm up to the idea of like, I have something to teach. But yeah, it was so hard to start kind of moving forward in my gifting just because of how some of those mindsets had. influence me and I think too sometimes I have a voice in my head like I can imagine the objection already without even anybody hearing my ideas I know the voice of these men that come against the ideas that I have. I’m very aware of the other side. I’ve read a lot of complementarian literature I understand all their arguments and positions and And that’s a good thing, because I can refute those objections. But yeah, I very much understand the mindset and there’s so many people who shut down women. so I feel shut down sometimes even without even sharing my idea. I’m like, I’m going to write this and I’m like, I already can hear the objections and the way that they would shut me down if I share this. I was really active. ⁓

Ruth Perry (24:07)
I would really encourage you, Jenna, to please use your voice. I’m really impressed and amazed by all that you’ve just shared in this short conversation. I think you definitely have a gifting and a calling from God. And part of the challenge of being a woman that grew up in these complementarian spaces is giving yourself permission to follow that because nobody else is going to. And so you have to just take that leap of faith and you are going to have pushback.

But honestly, I think the complementarian men are not trolling the internet as much as we fear and they’re really easy to block or to just like not approve their comment. Like it’s just, you can protect your space.

Jenna Dunn (24:39)
Thank you. Yeah, I see women with a lot of comments and interaction online. I see it’s not as bad as I think. I think I used to be really active. I would debate things with people on Reddit. And so Reddit used to be very anonymous. And so some of the people representing a very reformed comp view were really harsh.

Ruth Perry (24:59)
Bye. They’re the worst.

I mean, even if you’re not being mean, people can still read the tone of your whatever you write and whatever tone they’re hearing in their head. You can’t control that. You just have to like put the message that the Lord has on your heart out there. And it’s not going to be for everybody. if it only reached one person, I feel like you’ve made an impact that matters. So I would encourage you.

Jenna Dunn (25:20)
Yeah.

Ruth Perry (25:35)
to go ahead and be courageous. And I think that it would be really meaningful and fulfilling to you to start putting your work out there. I would listen to your podcast and I’ll share your articles. I’m excited for you.

Jenna Dunn (25:35)
Thank you. Yeah.

Yeah, think I’m going to spend some time this upcoming year focused on developing as our Bible. I definitely over overthink. You know, I overthink a lot.

Ruth Perry (25:59)
Yeah, have you done any enneagram work?

Jenna Dunn (26:01)
What? Yeah. I’m like an INFP. Yeah.

Ruth Perry (26:08)
The enneagram numbers are one through nine and you strike me as number five.

Jenna Dunn (26:13)
yeah yeah yeah, the number one. I’m like a f-

Yeah. What are you?

Ruth Perry (26:18)
I said, you strike me as a five, but I’m a five also, yeah.

Jenna Dunn (26:21)
I think I was a four, but I… Yeah. Yeah, I think so.

Ruth Perry (26:24)
You might have a five wing, but the four part of you would be the more sensitive part. Like for me, I don’t really care if people disagree with me. I’m okay with like online interactions and I actually really enjoy listening to people and reading people who disagree with me. But I think part of that is just my personality is I’m the observer and I enjoy observing people.

Jenna Dunn (26:34)
Yeah, people are interesting for sure. Yeah, no, I am very sensitive and like I think about things a lot and I really take things to heart and like I will sit on an idea for years sometimes before I share it. So yeah.

Ruth Perry (26:49)
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Me too. I’m an INFP also. And I don’t feel like I ought to podcast number one, I feel like I have the most annoying voice in the world who would want to like listen to this voice. I don’t know. So I just would I had the idea. So I mentioned it to people and everybody tells me that’s a great idea. So now I feel like I have to try it. But personally, I wouldn’t do it. I have imposter syndrome. I would rather just keep reading other people and thinking about other people’s thoughts. But I do feel like I’ve had this platform on the Beautiful Kingdom Builders page and you can’t really have nuanced conversations when you’re sharing a meme or an article. And I just want to host longer conversations with people that just show that you can be a Christian that loves God and loves the Bible, but you’re not a gun-toting, militaristic, and anti-CRT. You don’t have to subscribe to all of that. You don’t have to believe in penal substitutionary atonement. There’s other ways to be Christian that I feel are more faithful to Jesus.

Jenna Dunn (27:53)
Yeah, it’s so true. And it’s so important to hear other people’s stories. I really do love the medium of podcasting. Like I listen to a lot of podcasts. And some of my favorite Christian ones are just like people sharing their stories.

Ruth Perry (28:26)
Why do you feel like a Beautiful Kingdoms Builder podcast is beneficial to the church?

Jenna Dunn (28:32)
Yeah, so I think it’s such a gift for women just to have a place to share their stories, like just to have their voices heard. I kind of believed I had to like build that all myself. Like I need to somehow earn the right to have my story heard and that’s how I learned web design. Like I was like, I wanna…build a website. But I always had that in the back of my mind that I was going to do Ezer Bible.

So it’s like I went down this whole other path of like, now I have a whole business building websites for people. And I do a lot on the internet. I do all kinds of marketing. But doing it for myself, for my calling has had a lot of obstacles. And I think that a lot of people would never be able to do that. I mean, it takes a ton of time to learn everything, to build your own platform. I love that the internet exists and women can build their own platform, but not everybody’s going to be able to do that. it would be great if there was more places women could just share what God’s showing them and share their stories and share their testimonies. Because if you’re coming out of a context like I was…you’re really feeling like your voice doesn’t matter already, right? And so just the fact that there’s platforms where they’re like, hey, you know, we actually do care about your experiences. We want to know, what following God has been like for you and what God has shown you. I mean, that’s huge. I mean, you just basically holding the microphone up to women and being like, we care about what you’re experiencing and we want to hear from you. Like your voice matters. I think that’s a huge thing. And so

I was going to ask you what prompted the change from Beautiful Kingdom Warriors to Builders.

Ruth Perry (30:09)
The warrior’s name came from Carolyn Custis James. A friend and I, Becky Buck, started the page 10 years or more ago. And we were thinking about the word ezer that it doesn’t just mean helper, it means like a strong help. And then it’s frequently used in the context of military. So like we’re in this battle.

to bring God’s kingdom, which would look like flourishing for all and peace and joy and like the fruit of the spirit and all these things, like building a Christianity. But the, well, see the building part came later in my thought as I’m thinking less about fighting battles, because I’m really tired of culture war. I don’t want to be a culture warrior. But that was so deeply embedded in me 15 years ago.

Jenna Dunn (30:54)
Yeah.

Ruth Perry (30:59)
that warrior seemed like a good name. But now I want to be a part of building something beautiful. Because we’re ambassadors, we’re builders, There is the spiritual warfare aspect of life. But really, the battle is God’s. And I just want to be a part of building a more beautiful Christianity, because I’m really…disappointed in the Christianity that I was formed in.

I know so many people who have walked away from their faith because of the culture warring and the politics and the bad theology and the subjugation of women and the racism and all these things. And I just want to say you don’t have to walk away. There’s a better Christianity that you could be a part of.

Jenna Dunn (31:46)
Wow. Yeah. Yeah, I think about some of the positions that I’ve taken more recently and I’m like, I hope that that focusing on theology or what the Bible really says isn’t just another turnoff for people. Because I’ve known Christians I’ve really cared about over the years who have more of like a shepherd’s heart for people or their…

maybe like more prophetic, they’re, just, they don’t get into theological discussions and they don’t understand half the things I want to talk about. They don’t know the terminology or the different people who wrote whatever books, but they just really love people and they just really have God’s heart for people. And they care about reconciliation or they care about seeing people grow in the Lord. And they don’t geek out about

the Bible or theology like I do and I’m always like, I really want to make sure I keep those people close to me so they keep me in line and I don’t go off in this whole other direction that’s not people focused, right? Because at end of the day, that’s what matters, you know. But yeah, I do think that, you know, that’s a really beautiful change to make it about building the kingdom and being a part of building the kingdom. I was really interested
in that because when I first found the Beautiful Kingdom Warriors, I was very much like, ooh, warriors. And I also was so influenced by the idea. I mean, like, I got like an ezer tattoo. Like, that’s how much ezer was like. And on my muscles, I’m like, it was. It was because I was, I had been influenced and seen so many women’s lives influenced by the ideas.

Ruth Perry (33:16)
Yeah! That was a mind-blowing revelation, learning what AIDS are meant.

Jenna Dunn (33:30)
that are represented by Created to Be His Help Meet and that idea that a woman being ezer means she’s subordinate and then to like see the truth about that in scripture was wow such a radical shift and so yeah I really I really bought into that identity of like being like I’m an ezer like that’s super freeing and healing for me

Ruth Perry (33:53)
Yeah, it is a long process, healing and unlearning and relearning. I think for me, really started, the domino started falling away from my early faith formation about 15 years ago. And 15 years, that’s a long time, almost all of my adulthood.

Jenna Dunn (34:11)
Yeah.

Ruth Perry (34:11)
Or not really, no, that’s because I’m 44 now, so I’m like late 20s. Just really when my home church went through all that conflict and it impacted my family and we experienced a lot of abusive behavior towards us and shunning. And it was just really painful. And then all the little dominoes started falling. And the first thing that I noticed was if the women in this church had any say, this is not how this would be handled.

Jenna Dunn (34:39)
Yeah.

Ruth Perry (34:41)
And then I started wondering why don’t the women have any say? It doesn’t really make sense. And so that was the thing that for me, but I’ve just, last year, I finally went and did some EMDR therapy because over 15 years of me learning new things and working on all of this, I was still carrying the wounds and they were still wide open and painful and

Jenna Dunn (34:45)
Yeah.

Ruth Perry (35:05)
Just going through that EMDR therapy last year was really transformational.

Jenna Dunn (35:09)
Wow.

Ruth Perry (35:10)
And I think maybe that that’s where now I’m getting the I’ll try a podcast courage. I don’t know. I’m not as scared anymore.

Jenna Dunn (35:15)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, I think sort of gathering together women especially, but also I know when I think about like the strategy behind Ezer Bible, I didn’t want to make it just for women because if I see a Christian man that’s like actually teaching the Bible like the right way and like is understanding how important the voice of women is and how important women are to building the church. That’s actually so beneficial. I don’t like the idea of men and women are against each other. It’s actually just there’s men and women that are a part of the kingdom and it is a very supportive, helpful… I think about all the women that Paul was partnering with. They wouldn’t have been able to accomplish what the early church accomplished without those partnerships.

I had noticed if I say patriarchy, like I almost don’t want to use that term anymore because I talk to many people who when they hear me say patriarchy, they think I’m saying something against men. And like to me, patriarchy doesn’t mean men, men and women hold up patriarchy. I’m not saying anything negative about men. So it’s like to me that the divide should be the people over there that support patriarchy and then the people that are building the kingdom and following Jesus and laying down their lives and serving and submitting to each other. so but yeah, it’s an interesting thing because I think as soon as you try to bring men like I just was so comfortable talking about talking to women you bring men into it. I think there’s just this default that women will just back down and let men lead like there’s just our culture has conditioned us to be like, there’s a man in the room. Okay, I’ll shut up now and just see what he says. How do you get women to participate and to leave behind that sort of cultural conditioning? That’s something I think about a lot. But yeah, I really am super excited that you’re gonna do a podcast. And I hope that that ends up being something that more women…

you know, will start sharing.

Ruth Perry (37:11)
Is Four Square, that’s the denomination that Amy Semple McPherson founded, right?

Jenna Dunn (37:17)
Yeah, You know, it’s weird. There was a four-square church in the small city that I was a ministry wife in, and I had friends that… Even some of the leadership team had been raised in the Four Square Church. And so it’s weird to me. I’m like always wondering, why did they adopt this view of male and female gender roles and male-only leadership, if that was their background? But that particular Four Square Even though…their denominational belief system included women in ministry. They didn’t actually practice it. There wasn’t any women in ministry that I saw. Maybe the pastor’s wife was a little bit more outspoken than in other faith traditions, but they didn’t really practice what they believed, right? But the Four Square Church, now that I’m in a bigger city, actually the city I’m in, there’s so many good churches. Like there’s also a denomination here called Open Bible.

And it’s a bunch, it’s usually a husband, wife, pastor team. And I went to a few of those and like, I just cry. Like a woman gets up front and starts preaching. I just start crying. It’s just beautiful. I don’t know how to explain it. It’s not about one person. There’s a team of people. They take turns teaching. People take turns doing worship and. They just make decisions together as a team and there’s not like women defaulting to male leadership. The women share what they think and it’s just really healthy. I’m still blown away about it, I guess.

Ruth Perry (38:37)
Yeah, I’m glad you found that church.

Jenna Dunn (38:39)
Yeah.

Ruth Perry (38:40)
And I’m glad I met you, Jenna. This is so nice. We’re friends now.

Jenna Dunn (38:42)
I’m glad I met you too. Yeah, I am happy too.

Ruth Perry (38:47)
Thank you so much, Jenna. You shine the light of God from your whole being and everything you’ve shared has been really beautiful and impactful. And I feel like God has definitely gifted you.

Jenna Dunn (38:58)
Thank you. Thank you so much.

Ruth Perry (39:02)
So if you need encouragement, I’m encouraging you. Take the risk, do it, because I love it. I love it. I feel like you’re a beautiful soul.

Jenna Dunn (39:06)
Aww, that means a lot. Thank you so much. Yeah.

Ruth Perry (39:13)
So keep on keeping on, Jenna. You’re doing great.

Jenna Dunn (39:16)
All right, you too. Thank you so much, Ruth.

Ruth Perry (39:18)
Thank you.

Thanks for following TBKB Podcast! A new episode will drop every Wednesday. Be sure to subscribe on your favorite platform! Next week, we’ll hear from my missionary friend Scott Harris. God bless! Have a very Merry Christmas!!

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001 I Becky Buck & The Origins of TBKB

Posted on December 10, 2025 by | Leave a comment

Please enjoy the first episode of The Beautiful Kingdom Builders Podcast, in which I interview co-founder Becky Buck and we reminisce about the origins of this blog and our Facebook community. We explore our personal journeys of faith, the challenges of deconstructing traditional beliefs, and the importance of love and community in spiritual growth. We discuss the impact of religious trauma, the complexities of gender roles within faith, and the need for critical thinking in understanding one’s beliefs. Our conversation emphasizes the significance of reclaiming identity and voice, particularly for women in high-control religious environments, and the transformative power of love in fostering a deeper connection with God. I hope you enjoy it! Please subscribe on your favorite podcast platform and follow me on Instagram, Threads, Bluesky, Facebook and TikTok for reels and more!

In this conversation, we mention North Harbor Community Baptist Church, our pastors Dan and Lisa Wells, Brennan Manning, and Carolyn Custis James — all great resources and hopefully future podcast guests!

TRANSCRIPT:

Ruth Perry (00:15)
I just want to welcome my very beautiful friend, Becky Buck! We go way back to our time when I lived in Maine. And we are the dynamic duo that started The Beautiful Kingdom Warriors page. I had to look it up. When did we start? It was January, 2014. And so I’m very grateful to have you here, Becky, because I was in a real spiritual wilderness period of my life at the time and it was so lonely. And you filled a huge gap for me being a kindred spirit. And I’m just so grateful for our friendship and our work together on The Beautiful Kingdom Warriors. And I’m excited to like reminisce together and talk about our spiritual journeys together.

Becky Buck (01:04)
Yeah, definitely. I can’t believe it’s been 10 years. That is, that’s wild. I mean, we’ve seen so much since then, you know, moves, transitions, losses.

Ruth Perry (01:07)
Yeah. You’ve had two babies, I think, since we started. You already had two.

Becky Buck (01:21)
Yes, I’ve had two babies. A pandemic. mean, coming back after that, career changes, it’s been a decade. It really has been. Yeah, I was looking back when we were working on the blog and getting main ownership transferred back to you. I was like, wow, this is a trip down memory lane. I tried to go back as far as our first blog and blog entries would go. And it was like, wowzer, we’ve done a lot of growth since even then.

Ruth Perry (01:50)
Yeah, yeah.

So I thought, I want to go back before the Beautiful Kingdom Warriors. And both of us share where we were when we met each other. And so I’ll give you a couple of minutes to like just stew on that question. And I’ll say where I was at the time. We had, my husband and I moved back to Maine.

Becky Buck (01:59)
Yeah.

Ruth Perry (02:13)
after we finished seminary in Massachusetts and after we had had our first son and he was an infant and my dad’s church in my hometown is where we were going and my dad was the senior pastor and my brother was the associate pastor and we went there for a couple of years and then there was a huge church split and it was really ugly and there was a lot of trauma and spiritual abuse that we experienced through that. And so I think that was when Benjamin was a baby.

And he was born in, oh my gosh, 2007. And then between the time that we came to North Harbor Community Church where I met you, so there was like five years where we were basically starting in our hometown of Boothbay, Maine, going to like all the evangelical churches and visiting them. And then we would get involved in them. And there were several churches that we ended up having, like either being asked to leave or being like gently prodded to leave. And so we had additional traumatic experiences with church. And so when we came to North Harbor, spiritually I was very ragged and I was like an open wound. And then I was also deconstructing because in 2010, when I was pregnant with Abbey I had my call to ministry from God and I was a complementarian at the time. The belief that spiritual authority belongs to men in the church and in the home. And so that was causing some painful cognitive dissonance for me. And I started reading books and blogs but in my personal relationships, if I brought anything up like that, it was like I’d get slapped on the wrist by people. Like you’re going out of bounds, you’re headed down a slippery slope. And so a lot of personal
kind of trying to keep me in my place and in my lane. So a lot of those readings and things were just happening privately for myself and kind of lonely. So that’s where I was when we came to North Harbor. I think we got there in 2012. And where was your journey to North Harbor, Becky?

Becky Buck (04:05)
Yeah, I mean, I think a big piece of we were we hit it off immediately because I feel like you and I were both really battered and bruised at that point in our like season of ministry. I think when we both first came to North Harbor, I don’t know if we I guess maybe we were still volunteering on the Kids Cove team. I don’t know if Graham had joined the preaching team yet or if even we had started with worship. But I feel like

We were easing our way back in to serving after also coming out of kind of a toxic ministry situation. So the short answer for how we ended up at North Harbor is community. think when Graham and I moved from Florida back home here to Maine, it was because my two best friends were part of the launch team for North Harbor.

And so Graham served for about two years on staff at a church in New Hampshire as a youth pastor. And I think what was hard about that is we thought even just moving to New Hampshire, somehow we would have community and friends and family, but we very quickly discovered that because we believed in things like egalitarian ways of moving through ministry in the world, because we didn’t really hold to normal upper middle class, I would even say elitist views of students needing to participate in sports and get amazing grades and then go on to Ivy League institutions. We didn’t really push that and you know we were basically pushed out of that first official full-time ministerial position.

When that happened, I was like done with the church because lots of pieces of my story involve, we’ve talked about this before, spiritual and religious trauma through high control, fundamentalist Christianity. And my journey with my faith, I think it’s really hard when you’re hoping for the best because you’re answering the call of ministry and you encounter just pain and disappointment and shame. And I think those were themes that I had struggled with personally, but then to watch Graham go through that for the first time really was like, I was so heartbroken and yeah, so when we made the choice to move back, was to be near my family. We found out my dad was really sick and we wanted to kind of move home to help care for him.

And again, we had community, like we would come visit North Harbor and it was like, that was our people. And I think what made that place so special for us was there wasn’t an expectation for us to get involved. We were just like loved. But that made us then want to be involved, probably a little faster than we should have been. But I think what’s really hard as you grow in your journey of life, deconstruction is a natural part of that. And I think people are very afraid of that and it’s a very hot button topic word that’s being thrown around in these volatile times of just worldwide unrest. And I think it’s not something to be afraid of because a richer understanding of the human experience is what can await you in that because we would not have found each other if we hadn’t been open to the process of growing and questioning and critically thinking together, you know?

Ruth Perry (07:26)
So was it church hurt that started for you, the onion, peeling away the layers of the things that you had been raised with in high control religion? Or was it something else like what radicalized you, Becky?

Becky Buck (07:38)
What radicalized me? I don’t know the Sermon on the Mount. Imagine that. It’s so funny because I was like practicing last week or two weeks ago before, you know, the unfortunate Black Widow incident. So glad that you’re on the mend. That was scary. Yeah, I was in the car and I’m like, she’s going to ask me about my deconstruction journey. She’s going to ask like, what are you going to say? Like, and

Ruth Perry (07:42)
Yeah!

Thank you. Thank you.

This is what I love to talk about. I love to hear people’s story.

Becky Buck (08:05)
Yeah, yeah, same. I mean, that’s why we started this, right? was like a redemptive base for people to have redemptive dialogue about, you know, areas of theology and life that were colliding. Yeah, so I think, well, first of all, I think being born a woman, radicalizes you quickly. Because we don’t know necessarily what is being done to us when that is the norm, right? And I think, I always felt in my spirit that I was a lot. I always related more to my brothers and the men. I was very nurturing, but, and I love hair and makeup, obviously, and fashion and creativity and expression and all of that. And I always had loved that.

what I always joke about like being so young and having like, you know, the tutu with the bow and arrow and a Barbie and a GI Joe. Like that was kind of my childhood. And I think that was humored until I hit puberty. Right. Like the aspects of myself, I was still very praised for my beauty and I was praised for my like performing abilities with like singing and music. Right.

Ruth Perry (08:58)
Yeah!

Becky Buck (09:16)
And so you learn quickly that if you want to belong or if you want to feel good, those are the things that you have to do. And I think when I hit my teen years, that’s when my deconstruction journey began. Because I quickly realized that in high control fundamentalist Christianity, not all voices are welcome at the table. And that was through local church.

That was through youth groups. went to a church school. It was through that. And I don’t want to completely destroy how beautiful my growing up experience was in that in many ways. I had great friends in my very, very small Christian school. We made a lot of great memories together. I met Graham at a Christian camp that I would say was much more liberal, but still women were only allowed to work in the kitchen, the nurse’s office, or admin. They could have admin roles at the Christian boys camp. We were told that we were supposed to be wallflowers, which if you’ve spent five seconds with me you know like that’s it’s not gonna happen.

And I think I never understood, I guess in so many ways I’ve always been moving like the line towards like liberal progressive Christianity because I always felt like I was pushing the boundary of always asking, but why do we do it this way? So like we have dress code, but why? women’s bodies are dangerous, but like what about men though?

Like, so we have to have modesty, but like what are men doing? Like there was just these pieces to my deconstruction journey and the way that my brain works. Like it didn’t add up. It didn’t make sense. Like if God loves everyone, why are we saying like in order to be loved by God, you have to look like this, be like this, perform like this, do like this. So I think my entire deconstruction journey was truthfully just like studying the Bible through a critical lens and being open to hearing from people who didn’t believe the same things as I did. And that was really frowned upon, right?

I mean, I lost friends for reading Carolyn Custis James. Like, I mean, I lost friends because of that, because I was no longer a complementarian. Yeah, so I think the beginning was being born a woman in a high control patriarchal society where it just didn’t add up. It didn’t add up for me like who I was as a person and what I read in the Bible even without knowing Hebrew or Greek like it just it didn’t make sense to what I was being told I had to do and be to what I was like reading. So yeah I don’t know.

Ruth Perry (11:41)
Yeah. You were young because for me, I never questioned complementarianism and I got a lot of positive feedback for myself and like puberty and beyond as being a good Christian girl. And so I never really questioned it until I was, um, after I’d had children basically, or maybe it was actually the day that we got home from our honeymoon. My husband came home for dinner and I was like sobbing and I said, I don’t want to be a housewife. Like finally occurred to me. Wait a second. This isn’t for me. Um, yeah. So I would commend you for being a young person and realizing and asking why.

Like that’s a skill that I just, I didn’t have. And I really admire it in people, the people who are like, what, why? And also, like, I agree with you. I have so much gratefulness that I came from a Christian background. Even if it wasn’t a perfect Christian background, I still don’t think I have a perfect Christianity. I don’t think anybody does. And so that heritage I’m grateful for, but I do feel like we need to have curiosity, and we need to work out our own salvation. And we need to like really test the things that we believe because we’re all wrong about stuff. And I think we were wrong about a lot of things. Yeah.

Becky Buck (13:02)
Right. And I think, for sure, for sure. I mean, I think, yeah, it’s tough. Like one of my words in the current season of life, studying to become a licensed clinical counselor is like duality or like if you’ve ever heard of like dialectical behavioral therapy, right? It’s this concept of radical acceptance that two seemingly opposing truths can be true at the same time. So I can hold gratitude for the friendships and the lessons that I learned through really beautifully loving and kind people who embodied the teachings of Christ, right? I can hold that. And then in this other hand, I can hold appropriate feminist rage for systems of harm that are anti-biblical, that push an agenda that was never the gospel because women are dangerous in many, views within the church.

And I think, yeah, I think that piece is unfortunately the piece that people see, especially in these turbulent times. Like that’s what they see, right? They see just this in your face, high control, Christian nationalist agenda. That’s what people think the church is. Like it’s it’s rough out there, it’s really rough out there if you are somebody who’s really trying to embody the teachings of Christ and kind of let everything else go because the second you put your foot into anything that goes against this ideology. You know, you’re blacklisted from so many things. It’s, it’s, it is a rough, rough world trying to hold that duality. So I don’t want you to hear me say that I’m like, okay with how I grew up and what I was exposed to and what I went through because I carry that spiritual and religious trauma of not being able to trust myself.

In full disclosure, right, one of my first moments in therapy in Graham’s first year of seminary, when I had a really intense emotional breakdown, my work was to order for myself at a restaurant. Like I had such fear and like I couldn’t order from a menu. I would get anxiety about like ordering my own food. I had to like defer to what everybody else was having, why they were having it. I could not make choices for myself. And I think in high control religion as a woman, you’re taught that you can’t trust yourself. If you are born female in high control Christianity, you are immediately marked as less than. You carry evil within you, you carry temptation within you, right? And I think we internalize that.

We are internalizing a message in critical periods of human development that I’m not safe. My emotions, my feelings are not safe. I can’t trust those things. The only thing I can trust is what my dad says and what my pastor says. Those are the only things that I can trust. So I’m being taught that message, right? But still experiencing such rich celebration of who I am between my relationship with Christ growing up, right? So like, I don’t know, like I just, I don’t want to gloss over the duality, you know?

I think it’s really important that we call out systems of oppression for what they are. Even though high control fundamentalist Christianity taught me about community, it also taught me about hate and it taught me about fear and it taught me about separation. And I think that’s something that unfortunately we still see in this giant movement back to what so many of us were fighting against for so long. So, yeah.

Ruth Perry (16:46)
I had a epiphany, maybe there’s two different times when I feel like I had big spiritual awakenings. And one time was after one of my very best friends died at 21 years old. And she had become a Christian when we were in high school. And I had done this discipleship book with her and she was my Christian friend. But then when we went off to college, she IM’d me one day back when we were IM-ing people and said that she was doubting her faith. And I remember like throwing myself on my bed sobbing. I couldn’t comprehend doubting faith. And to me, she was a lost person now. And for a few years, when I went home and we would hang out, I never talked to her about her faith. Cause I was like, so the weight of her salvation was on my shoulders.

Becky Buck (17:11)
Yeah, we were.

Ruth Perry (17:31)
And I was so intimidated and fearful of what a conversation about her faith would be like, that I just never said anything. And then she died of a pulmonary embolism at 21 years old. And I was certain, like I had this like crushing guilt that I failed her and that I did not save her in time. And so that spiritual awakening, came to the realization, I don’t really, I don’t know how I think, I mean, God just revealed this to me, I think that God loved my friend more than I loved my friend. And that God cared for my friend more than I cared for my friend. And that God could have reached her without me, which was like a huge light bulb realization that her salvation wasn’t on me, that it was on Jesus. And so I had this like, new realization that the weight of the world wasn’t on me. God is the one doing the work.

And then around the same time, after God called me to be in ministry and I started reading about women in ministry and rethinking that. And this was right after our home church had split with all my family involved and just a lot of emotional, like it was a really raw time. I came across Brennan Manning on YouTube. He’s the guy who wrote Ragamuffin Gospel. And there’s like old gravelly videos of him preaching with his old like deep voice. And there’s something about listening to his sermons that just broke me wide open. And I was weeping and realizing for the first time that God loved me unconditionally and that I didn’t have to earn anything, that I didn’t have to be a good Christian girl.

Becky Buck (18:48)
yes.

Ruth Perry (19:08)
I could be just a very flawed human being and God would love me. God loves me unconditionally. That realization gave me the freedom to really start deconstructing and having the liberty to question things. Cause feeling like you have to earn your salvation or that like you could go to hell at the like, there’s so much fear in that. And I, the realization that you know what?

I think God is powerful to save. I think that we’ve underestimated what God can do for us and that God is more loving and beautiful than we’ve ever imagined. And it was in that, that knowledge that gave me the freedom to deconstruct. So tell me, Becky, with all of your psychology studies, what is it about love, like feeling loved, that gives you the freedom to be curious about other things?

Becky Buck (19:52)
Yeah, that’s a great question. So I think love equates to safety. And when we feel truly safe, we can experience love, right? It’s very difficult to feel love when you’re not feeling safe. Not that you can’t, but I do think for me specifically, my own journey, like safety has been like a priority for the 15 years I have personally been in therapy. So it is a journey when we look at why love though, right? Like why biologically do we need love?

Well, love is belonging. Love is identity, love is bonding, So that moment that the baby is born, that rush of those bonding hormones and oxytocin, right? That is present in birth and all mammals that give birth. So I think we have to think about that without that bonding, we would die. Just on a purely biological level, like it keeps us alive, right, to desire to be bonded and cared for.

I think in relation really into attachment theory, where that explores how our primary caregivers shape our ability to be secure in relationships, most often in romantic relationships, but not exclusively to that. And so, you know, that love really has to be present and specifically meaning love looks like meeting basic needs, yes, but it also looks like somebody having joy over who you are. Physically touching you. There’s so many pieces to secure attachment. You know, that when I push back or when I go away, you’re still gonna be there and you’re still gonna love me. You know, that’s stuff that we learn.

And I think in faith, I think what’s really difficult in high control religion, is we equate love with transaction and possession, which is not love. And we reward that system with praise. So again, was like the whole looking back at my childhood, there were just things that did not make sense to me. It didn’t make sense to me how I could feel love from the same people that caused me harm. That created in myself a type of attachment called disorganized attachment. And it’s really complicated because people who are your primary caregivers show up for you a lot, but then are also unsafe sometimes in really big ways.

And so for myself, I think it was hard for me to process love because I equated love with chaos and the love of Christ brings peace, right? I think of like perfect love casts out fear. That’s one of my favorite verses. I had a friend once we were having a conversation about what we believed about faith and spirituality and he talked about how his experience of God is that God is love and love is God. So any place that you find love, that’s God. And that just blew me away. That was like four or five years ago. And I was in the thick of some really, really difficult deconstructing life stuff. So I tattooed love wins on my knuckles. ⁓ And that spoke to me in so many ways because that is love, right? Love is showing up. Love is safe spaces and safe places. Love is having hard conversations with people who don’t agree with you, which is why we started this, right?

Ruth Perry (23:08)
Aww. Yeah. Yeah.

Becky Buck (23:30)
and trying to find a way to offer compassion to each other. yeah, psychologically speaking, we have to have love to thrive in healthy mental and socio-cultural ways. Yeah, it has to be there.

Ruth Perry (23:48)
I’m thinking of 1 John 4:7-8 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. And they that love not know not God, for God is love. Beloved, let us love one another.

Becky Buck (24:03)
Yeah, we have chills. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah.

Ruth Perry (24:06)
Fortunately, that was a song that I sang growing up, so I remember it, because I have the worst memory in the world. But I mean, I’m so grateful for it. Like, that’s a verse that I remember, because I do feel like until you understand love, you don’t really understand God.

Becky Buck (24:14)
Woo! Right, right, because we often associate

Ruth Perry (24:23)
Not that anybody can understand God, but you start to.

Becky Buck (24:27)
Right. Yeah. Well, because God is something when you’re in really high control, fundamentalist Christianity with a headship model and a complementarian model. And I think probably a lot of people who watch this will know what that is. But, you know, headship is in the home where the father figure, the male father figure, that’s the child’s first go-to and the father is accountable to the pastor and the pastor is accountable to God. And so everything is run through the father and I think unfortunately I talk a lot about I lost my dad in 2022 and so the last several years have been a lot of joy and pain as I listen to people’s memories of him.

I am constantly reminded of villains and heroes and how we often, in other people’s accounts and experiences of us, sometimes we’re going to be villains and sometimes we’re going to be heroes. But all of us embody that at one point or another in our lives. And I think in my growing up fear, was a motivator for good behavior. Love as a child felt very far away. I didn’t really see but I think I was also like obsessed with Disney romantic love too. Like there’s a whole piece of that in there that I was like wanting that and very swayed by those persuasions and feelings but yeah I agree. I think God isn’t fear. And I think we were taught that we have to be afraid of God to keep us in line and to keep us compliant, especially as women.

Yeah, that’s an interesting thought, because like, mulling it over We can’t know who God is, if you don’t really experience love or understand love. You’re gonna miss it. Or value it, or value love, you know? You’re gonna miss God.

Ruth Perry (26:16)
Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, I was taught, I think I was 30 something when I had that epiphany. So for 30 years, I had been a Christian and been taught that God is love and God loves you and we’re saved by grace, not by works. I knew all that, but there’s a difference between the words that you’re taught and then the behaviors that you’re conditioned in everybody was rewarded for conforming I don’t think my home churches ever felt like they were high control. But as a child growing up in them, I definitely absorbed.

how to conform and be praised and what was expected and what was valued in that community. And it’s taken a lot of years now to just find my voice like you. I didn’t have a voice. I had a script that I had inherited and I knew by heart and I used my script, but I did not know my own personality or… desires or needs. I was really good at just compartmentalizing that all the way in some hidden recess that I couldn’t reach. And so I was a very golden Christian girl, but that’s a painful thing to undo. It’s really hard to undo.

Becky Buck (27:36)
Yeah, yeah. Well again, because you’re rewarded for being a martyr as a woman, you know, we have the internalized misogyny of, in order to be loved by God, in order to be worthy of love and belonging, you have to die to yourself, right? And that’s praised. So the woman doing all the things in the home, in the church for kids, right? That is praised as pastors wives. That’s what people are like, great job. Like we really want to keep you around because you’re such a utility that we can just work with, you know? So I think for me that was really hard.

I didn’t say this, but when Graham went to seminary, they had a, what do they call it? Wives in ministry? It was wives. They prized the word wives. It wasn’t women, it was wives in ministry and it was like a support group and I kid you not the first one I went to there was a lesson about how to properly set a table for when you’re hosting like different families and things like that. Like literally it was like Miss Manners Club and I turned around and I walked out. I’m like no this is not it. This is not it for me. And I think that also fueled my deconstruction journey was seeing at a seminary, you know, 50 women being put in their place and willingly doing it and not questioning it.

I found that really upsetting because in my experience growing up, like, because obviously I had my mom, like there was tension. There was constant tension in my mom showing up for her family, but being true to herself. And I love my mom for that. she was not going to be controlled. She was not going to conform, but then she like kind of did, you know, but I think I also have to credit her and I have to credit the women in my life who were believers but still brought a voice to the table even when they weren’t supposed to. I think I learned that you have to know how to play the game, that you can have a voice at the table in certain situations and places. But yeah, the script is real. That is a real piece.

Ruth Perry (29:40)
Mm-hmm.

Becky Buck (29:59)
to… I know I feel like we always say it wasn’t that bad. It wasn’t that bad. And then you start to tell your story and you’re like, oh my, I was actually a part of a community that a pastor from a pulpit said that women who wear pants are whores. Children in the service saying that. mean, who, some of those kids didn’t even know what a whore was. Like, and yeah.

Ruth Perry (30:15)
Yeah. My gosh.

Becky Buck (30:23)
It’s crazy to look back and just think how Creator God aligns us to bring healing to the world. I think looking at you and I and our alignment, I think we were both rewriting the script.

Ruth Perry (30:40)
Yeah, and it was really powerful to find a fellow sojourner on the path out there in the wilderness. made it a lot less lonely. You actually like threw a lot of firewood on my fire. Like you got me so revved up and so passionate. And I was like, you know what? This has to change. We’re gonna change the world, Becky.

Becky Buck (31:01)
Yeah. We’re just, it’s what we do. Just one brave truth at a time. One brave truth at a time.

Ruth Perry (31:09)
We should have recurring conversations because you’re a wealth of knowledge and expertise on this and just such a beautiful soul and your heart is bigger than anybody else’s. You have so much love and passion and a heart for justice and making things right. Which I feel like that’s straight from God and that’s a mission and the Church is blessed to have you. And I hope more people tune in and join us in this I don’t know that I like the word deconstruction, but I don’t have another one. So just question the script that you’ve been given because… Yeah! Yeah. Yeah.

Becky Buck (31:54)
Just call it critical thinking, where we’re exploring critical thinking skills together, because that inevitably leads to deconstruction.

Ruth Perry (32:03)
Yeah, things aren’t as black and white as we were told. There’s room for questions. And wrestling with your faith is a biblical thing to do, so.

Becky Buck (32:11)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Ruth Perry (32:12)
Before we say goodbye on this one, can you tell me about where the name The Beautiful Kingdom Warriors came from?

Becky Buck (32:19)
yes, can I tell you that? Well, I remember us wanting to start this blog. You talk about me lighting a fire under you, but your spirit spoke to me about just being willing to be wrong, being willing to shift and change gears and perspectives. And I think, you know, we both knew that when we met, we were supposed to do something with our experience and our stories.

I guess originally because we really geared this more towards like women in ministry and debunking, complimentarian faith, the word beautiful came to my mind, because like, that’s such a hot button word in the church as a woman, right? Like if you’re too pretty, you’re going to distract the men. But if you’re not pretty enough, you’re not trying hard enough to get a husband. So there’s this really distorted view.

Ruth Perry (33:08)
Or you’re not trying hard enough for your husband that you already have.

Becky Buck (33:11)
Also true. So I think reclaiming that word under the lens of an egalitarian worldview. And then warrior comes out of, a very misunderstood translation when in Genesis when, you know, it’s the account where like basically scriptures are written as like you know God made a helper for Adam and this is a weapon that complementarian people use and high control religion and fundamentalist Christianity and all of that use to say that that headship is biblical right like God created men men then is told that he will have a helper.

So like a woman has to come under. I always was described it as like God, men, women come under the mission of the men in their lives. So first their fathers and their pastors, and then when they get married, that then becomes the umbrella that they’re under to come under their husband’s for furthering the gospel. And so that also never sat well with me.

Right, remember Little Becky with the bow and arrow and G.I. Joe and Barbie, like I have a warrior spirit within my soul. And I think, a big piece of my deconstruction journey was reading the book Lost Women of the Bible by Carolyn Custis James. And at that time, her husband was the president of Reform Theological Seminary where Graham was at. And so she took a massive hit in writing this book, basically debunking headship and pushing forward God’s truth for women and celebrating and empowering women as equals in life and ministry.

And I think she basically opens the book and kind of talks about that word helper. And it’s translated as ezer and it means yes, helper, but in the Hebrew, it actually means more of like co-laborer or co-warrior. And I think it’s 16 other times that it’s used in the Old Testament in reference to God coming and helping in battle. So it’s this visual of a man and a woman being back to back in battle, keeping an eye out for one another to fight for safety for whatever they’re fighting for. And I actually have that tattooed too.

Somewhere, nope, not that arm. This arm, this arm, some arm, this arm. I don’t think you can see it, but it’s there somewhere. I don’t know. I don’t know how to move it. But I think that was reclaiming that word, right? Through that knowledge received from the Lost Women of the Bible book. And I think it’s such a powerful visual that’s inclusive of everybody in how.

Ruth Perry (35:32)
Yay! Yeah!

Becky Buck (35:53)
whether it’s a romantic relationship, friendship, whatever it is, men and women are meant to work together, back to back, to co-warrior in sharing light and love and truth.

Ruth Perry (36:08)
I think Carolyn Custis James uses the phrase Blessed Alliance to explain what the relationship between men and women ought to be in God’s kingdom. And it’s like such a misrepresentation of egalitarianism that women want to be above men. Like we want to be free to use our gifts and follow our callings and be a part of building God’s kingdom here on earth as in heaven. And it’s about an alliance. It’s not a competition. And really the curse is where the dominion of man came over the woman. So we don’t want to live out the curse. We’re supposed to like live in the resurrection, redemption, history of Jesus now. Like in the kingdom of God, we should not be living under the curse.

Becky Buck (36:38)
right. Yeah, yeah, think, yeah, I think when we chose the Beautiful Kingdom Warriors, that was kind of the thought behind that. And I love how you kind of shifted it to be builders, right? Because that has more of a peace lens, which we need in this world.

Ruth Perry (37:00)
Yeah. Yeah, I was getting a lot of comments from people, why are you using such violent language? like, well, I mean, it was more like drawing from the imagery of the Bible and the, but yeah, I think they both, I like both names.

Becky Buck (37:17)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, well I think you’re, you know, the, the, I don’t even know what we call it, the blog, the company, the, what is it? What is it even now?

Ruth Perry (37:29)
Yeah, I just always call that a blog. I don’t really know.

Becky Buck (37:32)
I feel like it did its job and now it’s being birthed into something new. And I think it feels like it’s moving towards a more inclusive space where it doesn’t have to be as feminine driven, like in terms of what it needed to be to start for both of us to find a place for our voice and to help other women struggling with feeling like they didn’t have a place and that they were too much and not enough.

Ruth Perry (38:02)
It’s like once your dominoes start falling, you realize, well, actually, you know, patriarchy is linked to white supremacy, is linked to colonizing, is linked to this, is linked to that. And you’re seeing like how everything is interconnected because anything that’s like about supremacy of one over another is anti-God’s kingdom, I think.

Becky Buck (38:13)
Mm-hmm. Agreed. Totally agree. Because people use religion as a weapon, right? In my anthropology class when I went back to school, which was also a huge piece of my deconstruction journey, was like going to a secular university for the first time in my entire life. But it has made me so full and like clear in my vision and purpose and who I am and who I want to become. Like I could not have done the work that I needed to do to get to this point in my journey. the professor, the first day of class, she started by saying, beware of ideology. I didn’t even know what ideology was. I think when we say it has to be this way and only this way or else.

The or else is a problem. And you’re absolutely right. Like we can’t look at egalitarian belief in ministry and then not talk about issues related to like systems of oppression 100%. Like, yeah, I’m in full support of that. you can cut this out if you want to but I even hesitate to call myself a Christian at all these days. and it’s not because I don’t believe in the love of God and the person of Christ like bringing that truth through his life and death and resurrection. But yeah, I think the Christian nationalist movement has defiled the name of Christianity and Christian. And there were atrocities and terrible things that the Protestant faith and the Catholic Church did, again, weaponizing ideology for power and control and colonialism.

Yeah, maybe I would just end that with beware of ideology because it’s serving someone. That ideology that you are screaming in the streets taking bullets for, that is serving someone else who is not in the street taking bullets, right? And I think that’s where the critical thinking lens is really, really important in offering compassion and understanding to one another, but also being willing to be wrong and to pull back and say, like that wasn’t okay that that happened in history or in my past or path. Yeah. Yeah.

Ruth Perry (40:45)
The truth will set us free. It doesn’t help to be defensive or defend like the indefensible. It’s better just to shine a light on it.

Becky Buck (40:57)
For sure, for sure. And we talk a lot about like moving the needle, right? So I think it was Lisa in one of her sermons that that always stuck with me. You’re either moving towards a growing relationship with Christ or like moving away from that.

Ruth Perry (41:15)
I remember her saying that the day that we went to the youth group and that you and I shared about ezer and Genesis and she had her lesson first and I remember her talking about that with the kids and then I remember us talking and then if I remember correctly maybe Kian or Marissa had like a gecko or some lizard that they named Ezer and I was like really honored.

Becky Buck (41:36)
I love that. I love that.

Ruth Perry (41:37)
And I also remember while we were at North Harbor, think between you and I causing such a stir over women’s equality that they changed Lisa’s title from director to pastor. And I felt like that was so exciting. And now North Harbor has a female lead pastor. It’s like just.

Becky Buck (41:51)
They did. They did. I have chills from that. Yes. Yes, yes, Patty is,

Ruth Perry (42:00)
You and I speaking up and this being the thing that we’re passionate about. I mean, you can like really change a culture. And so it’s really powerful when we talk, tell our stories, ask our questions out loud. It’s powerful.

Becky Buck (42:03)
That makes me cry.

Yeah, and to not be afraid to think about who’s missing at the table, right? If we’re going to say that love is God and God is love and God loves the world, then the world should be represented at our table equally across the board. So if there are people missing at the table, there’s a reason why they’re missing. And I think not being content and asking the hard questions paves safety to experience love and belonging.

because now you’re safe enough to critically think and explore and deconstruct and you’re in a safe place to do that. And then again, inevitably love wins. And so you come to a place where more people’s voices are at the table and more work can be done creating places where people can belong and they are no longer feeling oppressed. They’re no longer feeling less than. And yeah.

I agree. I think it’s so powerful how one voice can turn to two voices, can turn to hundreds and thousands of voices just by asking the questions and finding that truth and that light together.

Ruth Perry (43:17)
Man, this was a really beautiful episode and I’m just so grateful for you, Becky, and I love you so much.

Becky Buck (43:25)
I love you too. I’m so, so grateful that we have reconnected and got to kind of celebrate where we came from and where we’re at. And maybe we can kind of revisit where you want to take this next. I don’t know.

Ruth Perry (43:37)
Yeah, let’s do this again soon.

Becky Buck (43:40)
Definitely.

Ruth Perry (43:41)
Alright, thank you. Bye.

Becky Buck (43:43)
You’re welcome. We did it!

Thank you again for celebrating the birth of the Beautiful Kingdom Builders Podcast with me! I am so excited to continue having redemptive conversations about gender, justice, abuse and healing in the Christian faith. Subscribe so you never miss an episode!

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Introducing: The Beautiful Kingdom Builders Podcast!

Posted on December 3, 2025 by | Leave a comment

This has been in the works for a while and I am so excited to launch with a little teaser episode today, with a full episode coming next week! You can listen to it on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, and more!

Coming soon: interviews with Becky Buck (co-founder of our blog and FB page so many moons ago!), Jenna Dunn (Bible study author at Ezer Bible), Amber Jones (author of Sacred), Scott Harris (missionary), and Dr. Roy Ciampa. You can comment here or email me suggestions for future episodes at ruthperry@thebeautifulkingdombuilders.com.

Transcript:

Welcome to The Beautiful Kingdom Builders podcast. I’m your host, Rev. Ruth Perry. This is a space for redemptive dialogue on gender, justice, abuse, and healing within the Christian faith.

This short teaser episode is here to introduce the podcast and give you a glimpse of what’s coming in the weeks, and maybe years, ahead.

More than ten years ago, my friend Becky Buck and I created The Beautiful Kingdom Builders Facebook page as a place to share what we were learning— and unlearning—about God’s dream for women and girls in His Church. Over time, that community grew and expanded into conversations on racism, abuse, Christian Nationalism, and many other issues that affect the Church in America.

I believe those conversations matter deeply. But posting articles and memes has always felt incomplete. I’ve longed for a space where we can explore these topics with more depth, nuance, and compassion. That’s what this podcast will do, I hope.

I’ll be talking with friends, mentors, authors, theologians, pastors, and activists—people who have been influential in shaping my faith and helping me to obey Jesus’ greatest commands, to love God with all my heart, mind, and strength, and to love my neighbor as myself.

There are so many beautiful expressions of Christianity—shining examples of what it looks like to follow Jesus faithfully. And there are also expressions that have, frankly, become bad news for many of our neighbors. The American Church has hemorrhaged 40 million people in the last 25 years, the fallout of her culture wars. Let’s talk to some of those folks, too.

One of the biggest lessons I’ve learned is that loving our neighbors well starts with listening to them well. And so I invite you to listen in as I host these conversations.

God is love and God’s grace and power to save are bigger and better than we’ve ever imagined. God’s kingdom is beautiful, and God is moving in powerful ways to heal and redeem the world. It is our deepest purpose as his followers to partner with God in that redeeming work.

I’ve already recorded several episodes and I have a hundred more in mind. These first conversations have been life-giving, challenging, and so much fun for me. I cannot wait to share them with you.

Please subscribe, share with your friends, find The Beautiful Kingdom Builders on all the socials, and join me as we imagine and build more beautiful expressions of Christianity—expressions that reflect God’s heart and God’s will, for earth as in heaven.

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Thanks for listening and following along! Please subscribe on your favorite podcast platform, and subscribe to emails here on the blog if you would like to read transcripts and episode notes!

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